Re: Is the UK next?

[Salty Sam]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6160620.stm

Now I wonder if we will see a similar move in the UK?

[Tresco]

No doubt someone will suggest it.

Salty, this is just a personal thing, but it really irks me when someone posts a potentially explosive topic, yet doesn't say what they (or in this case, you) think.

I won't let it come between us though.[:)]

Here's what I think. It stinks.

 

 

[chris pp]

Ditto that,

Chris

[Pip]

This has already caused a bit of a stir here in 'ol blighty.

I have no issue, Trescoletto, with anyone wearing anything anywhere, as long as everyone can wear anything anywhere - it's got to be a two way street.

[Tresco]

Pip, by a 'two way street' do you mean that when we go to Egypt etc, we have to 'cover up'?

Edit: sorry that's not clear. Do you mean we have to conform when 'there', and so if we have to do that, then others should dress as we do, when here?

[Pip]

From what I understand it's more than one middle eastern country.  We should all be tolerant of each others customs and religions wherever we are.

[saddie]

I have, when in muslim countries, dressed "with modesty" which is all I understood the Koran to ask. This meant not wearing shorts in inappropriate places and covering arms if not in tourist areas. I can remember seeing the burqa (sp) quite a lot in Preston back in 1976. At the time noone had a problem with it. Today however the world is not so gentle a place and who knows what may be under all that cover?

[Pip]

Just read the edit Tresc.  I mean that we should not change our dress code or customs to conform and neither should anyone over here.  Live and let live.

[JayJay]

Maybe fewer than 100 wear it & this is from one of the most tolerant countries!

 

[Tresco]

[quote user="Pip"]Just read the edit Tresc.  I mean that we should not change our dress code or customs to conform and neither should anyone over here.  Live and let live.[/quote]

Ok, I agree, 'we' shouldn't have to change our dress.

Is anyone asking us to?

 

[Tresco]

[quote user="JayJay"]

Maybe fewer than 100 wear it & this is from one of the most tolerant countries![/quote]

Sorry JayJ. I missed this.

Yes, 100 women is the outer limit at present in NL.

A law proposing to dictate how 100 women (max) dress seems a bit heavy handed to me.

[JayJay]

Exactly, me too!

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Tresco"]

...... this is just a personal thing, but it really irks me when someone posts a potentially explosive topic, yet doesn't say what they (or in this case, you) think

[/quote]

Apologies. While in the Middle East I never had a problem but I also believe "When in Rome" and abide by the cultural rules and dress code of the particular country.

In this day and age when security features highly in our everyday life, I think there may be a valid case for a less concealing form of dress.

[Tresco]

Thanks for that Salty Sam.

When you say 'when in Rome...' do you mean that, for instance, if you were in Saudi Arabia, that you would think it was OK, and right and proper to stone a person, for certain crimes, or that you would accept that sort of sentence grudgingly (on behalf of another), because you were in Rome/Saudi Arabia?

Just trying to understand your Point of View.

 

 

[Dick Smith]

There are two sides here. I don't like the burqa for all the usual reasons, it covers the face, which in my culture is a sinister and almost insulting thing to do. It tells me that the person behind it is making no attempt to integrate into our society, and yet I believe they should have the right to wear what they want as long as it doesn't give real offence - slogans etc. But on the other hand I think that people must be sensitive to the culture in which they choose to live, and not assume that they can change the host culture to conform to their own - which is after all what western 'imperial' countries are always accused of doing. I would like to see Muslim women confident enough to assert themselves fully in our society, and yet wearing the burqa means that they can never do that. I think that is something they should consider very carefully.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]. I would like to see Muslim women confident enough to assert themselves fully in our society, and yet wearing the burqa means that they can never do that. I think that is something they should consider very carefully.
[/quote]

Dick, for the most part, do you really think it's a 'confidence' issue on the part of the women who wear this garb?

[Dick Smith]

Sometimes, but yes, I see your subtext. The stereotype is that they are brought up in patriarchal families and pressurised into taking a subservient, invisible rôle. How far that is true I don't know. I have observed things which make me think that social and peer pressures are at work. All of this goes very much against my grain, at least.

Have PMed you on another matter.

[Tresco]

My subtext (directed at no one in particular) is this:

Don't exclaim about how we/you 'conform' to the laws made by people in other countries. We all do that, and we'd be fools not to.

Don't use how we have to conform in public while there, as some sort of tit for tat justification or legitimisation for criminalising women for dressing a certain way 'here', whether UK or France, or, more topically, in The Netherlands.

I've used 'don't' twice. Problem. People hate that.

 

 

[Dick Smith]

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Yes - the 'when in Rome' argument doesn't really hold water in these matters when it comes to deep beliefs or the tolerance of difference.

[Suze01]

People aren't allowed to wear hoodies in Bluewater shopping centre (from hearing a news item a while ago). But I suppose that a Muslim woman who went in covered up would not be a problem.  What if those 'hoodies' went in wearing a balaclava too - they'd get kicked out no doubt [8-)]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Now, I'd be interested to learn whether this restriction on covering up

will apply to all of us or just to muslim ladies? What irked me most

about the headscarf rule in France was that were the scarf being worn

in school as a matter of fashion by a non-muslim then it would be an

acceptable item of clothing, whereas worn by a muslim it could never be

so. To me this just smacked of discrimination, not secularism.

Personally, I find it very difficult to deal with people whose face is covered, but perhaps that's my problem, not theirs.

Any chance that a ban on certain choices of apparal might be extended

to anything with FCUK on it? Being able myself to do simple anagrams I

find this fairly offensive, particularly the FCUK Kids range.

EDIT: Seems that there is some proof of the pudding - the stars are for

F C U K, which is "just" a bit of branding, honest, and not a rude word

at all, but the software doesn't like it....

[SaligoBay]

Turkey is an Islamic state, but banned the headscarf.   It causes the same sort of issues there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6130218.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6122010.stm

Every country has its predominant dress code, and even in the terribly tolerant West we have our limits.  There may only be 100 people want to wear the entire burqa, but there are probably also quite a few who would like to turn up to work in bondage gear.   And they won't ALL be a pretty sight!

Both of these extremes will be offensive to someone somewhere.   The 95+% of grey area in the middle already offers plenty of scope for self-expression, I think.

The burqa is a choice.  Like bondage.   Not all Muslim women wear it or want to wear it.   Many Muslim women don't even cover their hair.   

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Suze"]People aren't allowed to wear hoodies in Bluewater shopping centre (from hearing a news item a while ago). But I suppose that a Muslim woman who went in covered up would not be a problem.  What if those 'hoodies' went in wearing a balaclava too - they'd get kicked out no doubt [8-)]
[/quote]

But Suze, how would you know the wearer was

a. A Muslim

B. A woman

Therein lie the problems.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]There are two sides here. I don't like the burqa for all the usual reasons, it covers the face, which in my culture is a sinister and almost insulting thing to do. It tells me that the person behind it is making no attempt to integrate into our society, and yet I believe they should have the right to wear what they want as long as it doesn't give real offence - slogans etc. But on the other hand I think that people must be sensitive to the culture in which they choose to live, and not assume that they can change the host culture to conform to their own - which is after all what western 'imperial' countries are always accused of doing. I would like to see Muslim women confident enough to assert themselves fully in our society, and yet wearing the burqa means that they can never do that. I think that is something they should consider very carefully.
[/quote]

I agree.

Seems these days the issue may be being used to some degree by Muslims to make Muslims feel victimised (basically stiring things up). Issues where a judge cannot hear somebody speaking properly in court - what is meant to happen ? Does a judge just continue having been unable to hear aspects of the case ? Of course in the countries where tradition dictates women being fully covered I doubt women would be acting as legal representatives for somebody in court. Similarly, when school children cannot hear a teacher properly through the full coverings, should the children just endure and miss what is being taught and would women in the more traditional Muslim countries be allowed to even teach in a classroom ? Maybe there is a bit of "we'll take the Western freedoms but not integrate to the Western culture". Of course people should be allowed to wear what they like within boundaries set by society and culture.

Then (as mentioned already) there are the "security issues". These days we are all meant to be petrified about every other person being a terrorist. We need CCTV cameras everywhere, we need ID cards, etc. to keep us safe. How does all this work when some people are fully covered ? What happens when somebody wearing a burqa is stopped by the police for an identity check ? Can they reveal their face to a male police officer (thus invalidate the entire idea of wearing it to start with) or can such people not have their identities checked (in which case it would quickly become the mode for your regular terrorist) ? Actually I think the UK gov is rather over playing the "we are all under such a threat", but if they are going to try and scare us so much then it is something they need to address.

Aspects raised by Dick about communication are pretty important. A large part of talking and communicating with somebody (face to face) is non-verbal. This cannot work properly when you cannot see the other person's face.

I have nothing against people wearing what they want but do wonder if this is a real religious issue or if it is being created as a "west victimising us" issue.

Ian

[Ford Anglia]

To take the example of banning the wearing of hoodies a bit further, last week in the UK an old lady was refused service in a cafe as she was wearing a pink hooded cardigan, with the hood down!

And a "Police, stop!" type programme showed the police in Sheffield giving real harrassment to a group of football supporters getting off a train at Sheffield station, since a few of them drew their scarves over their faces when the saw cameras.

The result was one of them getting arrested when he refused to uncover!

There seem to be dual standards at work here.........