StephenM Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Hi We are just about to buy our fist house in France. The heating is electric. I have read and been told by numerous people that electricity is expensive in France. I have looked at the French website of EDF and the costs appear to be HP €0.1074 kwh and HC € 0.0654 kwh, with a standing charge of about €270 for a 60 amp supply. I checked the cost of 14 UK suppliers and the average cost was 9.03 pence per kwh or €0.13. This makes French electricity cheaper than the UK. Have I missed something, or have I or the tariffs wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 My own belief is that charges in the UK have gone up and that the old mythology that it was more expensive here is now wrong. Our electricity bill is a little more than it was in the UK but now includes central heating and water which was not the case in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Still better off here with no gas to pay for,plenty of cheap wood for stove and electric heating when its really cold. People forget they have gas central heating in the UK to pay for compared to other fuels in France and I remember that being very very expensive in the two winter quarters when I lived there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddie Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="StephenM"]Hi We are just about to buy our fist house in France. The heating is electric. I have read and been told by numerous people that electricity is expensive in France. I have looked at the French website of EDF and the costs appear to be HP €0.1074 kwh and HC € 0.0654 kwh, with a standing charge of about €270 for a 60 amp supply. I checked the cost of 14 UK suppliers and the average cost was 9.03 pence per kwh or €0.13. This makes French electricity cheaper than the UK. Have I missed something, or have I or the tariffs wrong? [/quote]Have you included the standing charge in your English calculations?We are option tempo with gas for cooking and a woodburner which is backed up by electric convectors when needed.Our costs for 366 days including standing charge for an 18kva supply using a tad under 10000 kw hours averaged 0.14 cents a kw hour.Where did you get the cost of a 60amp supply and is that the same as kva? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I have just checked my latest EDF bill, 463 units (estimated reading) with a TTC total of E79.92 which gives a net cost of 17.3 c/kwh.Although the price of E0.0773 / kwh plus E 0.0045 /kwh (autres prestations) is the before tax rate you cannot avoid the abonnement (E4.40 / month) and the taxes locales (E5.97) plus the TVA.The above figure of E0.173 shows your UK price is cheaper at E0.13, but did you include your standing charge?edit. my tarif is domestique option base on a 6 kw supply code 014.2nd Edit:- The unit price on my tarif is E0.0778 / kwh effective 15/08/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 It certainly used to be the case that electricity bills in France were substantially higher than in Britain. However, Britain relies mostly on imported fossil fuels to generate its power. Costs of coal, oil, and gas fuels have risen sharply in recent years. France, on the other hand, generates almost 80% of its power from nuclear energy. After the capital outlay of building the power station, and the day-to-day running costs, nuclear electricity costs very little, and is not subject to the same sort of fluctuation.The result is that the two countries are now pretty much on a par, with France perhaps slightly cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Just adding to Will's post.From the EDF web site the sources of electricity generation are;Nuclear 86.9%Hydro Power 7.8%Fossil Fuels 5.3% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Yes I reckon that they are kif-kif now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmobile Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 The real difference is probably the scandalous EDF standing charges in France. Since deregulation in UK, many householders pay no standing charge for electricity.Let's hope the same thing eventually happens here when, at last, we can choose our supplier in a free market.Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesLauriers Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 My bill in France 1139€ using the same consumption figures on the Uswitch site they give the lowest figure available as £1321.61 or 1942€ at 1.47 to the £.A saving of over 800€. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="Leslauriers"]My bill in France 1139€ using the same consumption figures on the Uswitch site they give the lowest figure available as £1321.61 or 1942€ at 1.47 to the £.A saving of over 800€.[/quote]I hope that is an annual and not bi-monthly bill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Our current bills for gas and electricity in France are around 130€ a month x10. How much more we will have to pay this time when the bill comes in, I have no idea as the prices have gone up since last year............... AND these utility companies have already asked me to reduce my payments this year, which I refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="Patmobile"]The real difference is probably the scandalousEDF standing charges in France. Since deregulation in UK, manyhouseholders pay no standing charge for electricity.Let's hope the same thing eventually happens here when, at last, we can choose our supplier in a free market.Patrick [/quote]....all that has happened in the "free market" , it seems, isthat the standing charge has been redistributed into the unit price forpower. This is not necessarily fairer, as high volume users effectivelysusidise connections for small users but on average amounts to the samething in l s & d. What is deeply scandalous is that de-regulationhas left the UK woefully exposed to supply disruptions such as theRussians cutting of the gas for completely non-political reasons.Personally I have no beef with an EDF monopoly, but in most other waysam a fully convinced disciple of Adam Smith.Our home power bill is about half what we used to pay in London fiveyears ago, despite our level of use being about the same. Electricity(and wine) is one of the few things that seem to be genuinely cheaperhere than there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Also reminds me of the way Enron held the whole of California to ransom for similarly nepharious reasons! Scarey thought, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pun Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 It also depends on your location in france, we live in the heart of france (limousin) and we do not use much lighting /no heating/ no dryers/ etc in the summer and we have a long summer here and so if your not using it your not paying for it,its like the food question, if you shop and not just pick the first thing that comes into sight, ie it was pionted out to us that fish (cod) was very costly here in france and so we decided this week to see the price difference, on the open saturday market, 34 euro per kg in the freezer at two seperate sup/marketsone was 24 euro and the second was 12 euro per/kg. now thats one hell of a saving and by the way the locals bought the freezer fish it must be good.the same thing with veg, have a look when your next at the open markets how the prices change from display to display and you'll be amazed at how much you can save if you shop and not just arrive with wallet open and fingers pointing.The same goes for when you shop, friday/sat/ things will not be on offer as much as mondays monday is a good day for certain bargains ie fresh goods that have a short shelve life but can be frozen of used for that evening meal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Point taken, Pun but we spent only a maximum of 50% of the time at home when we lived in the UK (we worked) and we're here all the time now. Plus although our warm season is a little longer here, the weather is very similar in winter. Still we're pleased with the costs of electricity, given that we were led to believe it was considerably more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"]Also reminds me of the way Enron held thewhole of California to ransom for similarly nepharious reasons! Scarey thought, isn't it?[/quote]Ah yes, dear old Enron. Putting their other indescrtions to one side,all they did in this case was to triumph in the free market, outcompete everyone else and buy all the assets. So what exactly did theydo wrong? The logical conclusion of free & fair competition ismonopoly, so why did everyone get so exercised when the inevitablehappened? Give me EDF any day - it least they aren't trying to makemarkets in wood pulp derivatives and weather futures when they shouldbe concentrating on generating and distributing electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="Jon"][quote user="cooperlola"]Also reminds me of the way Enron held the whole of California to ransom for similarly nepharious reasons! Scarey thought, isn't it?[/quote]Ah yes, dear old Enron. Putting their other indescrtions to one side, all they did in this case was to triumph in the free market, out compete everyone else and buy all the assets. So what exactly did they do wrong? The logical conclusion of free & fair competition is monopoly, so why did everyone get so exercised when the inevitable happened? Give me EDF any day - it least they aren't trying to make markets in wood pulp derivatives and weather futures when they should be concentrating on generating and distributing electricity.[/quote]I've mentioned this on another thread but the movie "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" is a true eye-opener. They now have audio tapes of Enron traders phoning up California power stations (which did not belong to Enron, btw) and getting them to shut down the power for a couple of hours so they could sell at even more inflated prices, a commodity they did not even own in the first place. Well worth a watch - rivetting and thought provoking stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Jon"][quoteuser="cooperlola"]Also reminds me of the way Enron held the whole ofCalifornia to ransom for similarly nepharious reasons! Scareythought, isn't it?[/quote]Ah yes, dear old Enron. Putting theirother indescrtions to one side, all they did in this case was totriumph in the free market, out compete everyone else and buy all theassets. So what exactly did they do wrong? The logical conclusion offree & fair competition is monopoly, so why did everyone get soexercised when the inevitable happened? Give me EDF any day - it leastthey aren't trying to make markets in wood pulp derivatives and weatherfutures when they should be concentrating on generating anddistributing electricity.[/quote]I've mentioned this on anotherthread but the movie "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" is a trueeye-opener. They now have audio tapes of Enron traders phoning up California power stations (which did not belong to Enron,btw) and getting them to shut down the power for a couple of hours sothey could sell at even more inflated prices, a commodity they did noteven own in the first place. Well worth a watch - rivetting andthought provoking stuff.[/quote]Nothing would surprise me about that era, but I have a feeling thoseaudio tapes may not be quite kosher. Even the dimest MBA masqueradingas a trader would not make a call like that on a line he/she had eventhe slightest suspicion that it might be being taped by Complience.That is what pay phones are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 The tapes were made by the traders themselves( a common practice and much used to keep records of transactions) and were turned over as evidence in a court case. Anyway, don't want to drag this off-topic too much. But if this subject interests you - do get hold of the DVD; very well worth an hour and a half of anybody's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"]The tapes were made by the traders themselves(a common practice and much used to keep records of transactions)and were turned over as evidence in a court case. Anyway, don'twant to drag this off-topic too much. But if this subjectinterests you - do get hold of the DVD; very well worth an hour and ahalf of anybody's time.[/quote]Indeed, quite a normal practice (though we always found that trying tofind the relevant tape when we actually needed them something of atrial...) but not when doing something that even a moron must haverealised was unlawful. Unless they were doing it for ego boostingpurposes, which is entirely possible. But you are right - off topic. Ishall seek out the DVD. Good thing EDF weren't sold off a few years agoto the highest bidder, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Enron traders phoning up California power stations (which did not belong to Enron, btw) and getting them to shut down the power for a couple of hoursCome on people, wake up. There is not a power plant in the World that will shut down on the request of a 'gash' somebody. Instructions come from Grid Control or the Station Manager (who would have some really serious explaining to do if it was not a genuine emergency outage).Another urban myth I'm afraid. Oh and the Grid Control lines are dedicated secure links, not public access phone lines, and ALL instructions are automatically taped.RegardsPowerdesal ie " Power and Desalination", ex Operations Superintendent of 1000Mw power plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I can't comment on that powerdesal and without transcribing the entire film and the US court proceedings, I think maybe you should watch it and see what you think (and watch the "extras" on the DVD as they explain a lot about the sources of the material used). As I say, these tapes have been authenticated and many of the parties and individual involved (including power station mangers) are being prosecuted and some have been imprisoned and fined as a result of what happened. These are not my thoughts or "mythologies" but those of a film and a book, the findings of both of which have not been called into question. But as I say, it's a very revealing documentary and worth a watch, not only for the section about California. I've hijacked this thread enough now[:D] - at the time it was meant merely to highlight the possible dangers of deregulating the lifeblood of a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Coop,I will certainly try to locate a copy of the film as I am very interested. I can imagine any number of scenarios to get to the result you talk about but have never experienced such things in my career in the industry. I am not saying that you or the film are wrong, I dont have the information to do that. Its just never happened in my power plant. (its not mine anymore, I've moved on to project stuff on the specialist desalination side of the house). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumziGal Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 [quote user="Pun"]the locals bought the freezer fish it must be good.[/quote]Locals also buy Harry's American sandwich bread. And McDonalds. IMHO, the important difference is not the cost of electricity (which should be a LOT cheaper in France if nuclear is SO brilliant, non-imported etc, now there's a major con for you). The important thing is French incomes, which are generally low, so electricity is relatively very expensive. You can see the difference straightaway - UK houses are generally much warmer than French ones, and Brits aren't nearly as tight about every centime as French people are, because (generalisation coming up) they don't have to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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