We are in France so we must speak French...why?

[Renaud]

Though, I do not subscribe to Wen's point of view (but I occasionally share it, when my lack of French lets me down) I have to admire his technique - lob a contriversial topic onto the forum then walk away probably chuckling.

[Blitzen]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

I suppose it depends how well you want to know people!

If neither of you are communicating naturally, neither of you are being yourselves.   So who are you being, and who is they being?

[/quote]

It depends what you mean by naturally!  Personally speaking, I am always myself. I'm communicating, naturally, and at least we're both making an effort to bridge the language barrier.[8-|]

[Wendy]

No Renaud, I simply only have the time to post one or two things and then I have to leave the PC and do other things. I didnt realise I was obliged to stay and engage in continuous posting over the course of an hour or two. Even though I would like to sometimes.[:D] Oh by the way, 'he' happens to be the mother of five kids[;-)]

And I can speak some Mandarin, a bit more Japanese and some, largely forgotten, Gaelic.  Other cultures interest me so I simply made an effort. Its not hard. Pity though so many assume everything must always be a one way street.

[Georgina]

[quote user="hastobe"]If your background experience before coming to France was living in the UK wen, I could well understand your point.  In our local hospital you are lucky to find leaflets in English - however, there are millions of the things in urdu, hindi, bengali, punjabi - in fact our hospital has dedicated staff available to translate into urdu...

So maybe its a cultural thing - or French being behind the UK again??

Kathie
[/quote]

Yes and our cash strapped councils have spent MILLIONS of pounds translating everything into loads of different languages.  There was an asian woman complaining that she had been in England about 20 years and never learned English and it was ALL OUR FAULT for translating everything. There is something to learn from this, if you are so lazy, why should anyone help you? It would not surpise me if she will be trying to sue the council next. Things have got ridiculous in England and many are here for that reason. Nothing to do with racism, but everything translates to that now doesn't it?

My children's school made a teacher redundant so that they could employ a polish interpreter for ONE boy in the school. His parents did not speak a word of English. The head was so stressed about the budgeting she went off sick and never came back. Would we really want that to happen here. I think not.

 

The original remarks that got Wen's knickers in a twist on the Health forum were meant to encourage the lady to go to any dentist, because basically she will be fine, not lost in Wen's English translating English to mean that she had " no right to ask the French dentist to speak any English".  Totally uncalled for. Just shows you that even in your own language there are those that choose to misinterpret others.

Georgina

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Blitzen"][
It depends what you mean by naturally!  Personally speaking, I am always myself. I'm communicating, naturally, and at least we're both making an effort to bridge the language barrier.[8-|]
[/quote]

Yes, of course you think you're yourself!   But in your own language you can reply quicker, you can do puns, you can chat about anything from politics to football, you can drag up jokes and cultural references with no effort.   You understand the nuances, you understand the subtexts that tell you more than the words themselves do about someone's views/politics/beliefs.   All without conscious effort.  

You don't have to litter your conversation with "What does that mean?" or "Could you talk a bit slower please", or "in English we say" or worry that you've used the wrong tense or made a social gaffe by using the wrong register. 

That's all!  [:)]   

 

 

[YCCMB]

's funny, though, innit? I notice that the UK government which, in its wisdom, decided only a short while ago to make modern foreign languages optional for GCSE students (having made them part of the curriculum in primary schools[8-)]) has now decided to reconsider this rather startling ruling, given that so many kids have opted not to take languages to GCSE. So, there will in future be a 2 -5 year gap, in which people coming onto the employment market will only have a cursory exposure to any foreign languages in school, and these people will be taking us back to the old methods of doing international business, etc, where we speak English slowly and loudly till johnny foreigner understands. And of course, there'll be a corresponding period where  there are hardly any people wanting (or, in this case, able) to become language teachers, because there just aren't enough people who studied languages to degree level.............

Between them, France and the UK had colonisation pretty well sewn up. So  for a long time, the French did just what the English did, and used volume, hand signals and exasperated expletives to get their point across when travelling abroad. In my long experience, the French (sweeping generalisation) are just about as abysmal when it comes to speaking other languages as the British (further sweeping generalisation).[;-)].

[Blitzen]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

[quote user="Blitzen"][

It depends what you mean by naturally!  Personally speaking, I am always myself. I'm communicating, naturally, and at least we're both making an effort to bridge the language barrier.[8-|]

[/quote]

 ... you can chat about anything from politics to football, ...

 [/quote]

Maybe there is a bright side to not being to fluent!!!! [:D]

[Miki]

If you are a Bosch, are you THE Betty Bosch ? If so, do you know Sally Siemens?

If you are right SB, then we have a rich bitch amongst us, (no that's Benidorm, sorry Betty)

Everyone knows English must be spoken by the whole world, I think it is time France caught up and stopped playing silly bu ggers [:)][;-)]

Rumzigal  [quote]But in your own language you can reply quicker, you can do puns, you can chat about anything from politics to football......[/quote]

Errumphhh, in this case, for football, please read Zizou................................[;-)]

[KathyC]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

 

  But in your own language you can reply quicker, you can do puns, you can chat about anything from politics to football, you can drag up jokes and cultural references with no effort.   You understand the nuances, you understand the subtexts that tell you more than the words themselves do about someone's views/politics/beliefs.   All without conscious effort.  

[/quote]

Answering more quickly is obviously going to be true but few people pun and most can't talk about politics (or sometimes football!) in any meaningful way. It would be wonderful if everyone could understand every nuance, subtext and cultural reference used ( although I'm sure everyone posting here can!) but the fact remains that you're describing the language usage of an educated, intelligent person who's a good communicator. Most people, in any country, don't communicate at this level ( have you ever read the Sun or evesdropped on any normal conversation in a pub, bar or bus?) ; I wish it were true that people communicated as you've described but unfortunately it's not.

[Blitzen]

The trouble with the UK education system is that they keep adding subjects (Britishness next I believe), so less and less time is available for the ones which are already part of it.  I think we need to teach another language much earlier in schools, so that by the time children come to choose their GCSE subjects they have a much better grounding in that language. 

I remember driving to Denmark - from Germany - and finding that even the petrol pump attendant spoke excellent English.  When I complimented him on his excellent English, he said that when you live in a country that is the size of Wales you have to have another language, which more people will understand!!

[DOMY]

Dotty asked :

Domy do you live in France ?

------------------------------------

Bonjour Dotty !

Yes of course I live in France.

And I have no problems with Britts living here, except, when I read Wen's statement ....

[Beryl]

I am grateful to any French company that has a website or helpline that is dedicated for us English speakers but I don't expect it . I am glad in many respects that I am forced [:)] to speak French even badly, as I have said before I didn't want to live in an expat community because it would make me lazy with regard to learning the language of the country I live in. Numerous dedicated English helplines would make have made me lazier still. Though I agree it is nice to have a little help when you are struggling.

 

 

[Dick Smith]

If they provide a service in English it is because they see a commercial advantage in it, no other reason!

Leclerc in Vire has an 'English Spoken' checkout, which seems to be in the hands of English kids, often students on vacation, I suspect. I've never known a French person to be on it (though I don't usually bother - after all, using a supermarket checkout is hardly stretching even my language skills!)

Domy - nice to see you here, I agree with you totally!

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Blitzen"]The trouble with the UK education system is that they keep adding subjects (Britishness next I believe), so less and less time is available for the ones which are already part of it.  I think we need to teach another language much earlier in schools, so that by the time children come to choose their GCSE subjects they have a much better grounding in that language. 

[/quote]

I agree with the sentiment, but I find myself asking two questions:

1) Which language would British pupils be best advised to learn. French? German? Spainish? Something from the PRC? They cannot learn them all... If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile.

2) Personally, now that I appreciate just how much hard work and constant practice is required to maintain a second language to a high degree of competency, and given the small number of people who would ever actually use a second language in anger, I can no longer see the point in compelling children in the UK to learn another tongue. Keep it as an option for those who want it, but why bother spending hours trying to teach children something in which most have little or no interest and which gains them no lasting benefit? Every year we have guests here with A levels in French (even a degree once) who now speak bearly a word of the language. Given, as I understand, that there are now specialist colleges at secondary levels for science, technology & sport, why not create specialist language centres for those who have an interest? Would this not be a better employment of resources?

EDIT - Actually, that is rather more than two questions. Call it two questions with supplimentry inquiries.

[Miki]

If anyone thinks it is totally correct for a native to tell anyone to go home just because that person has a grievance, then if so, it is my belief that many Brits should not be here but then is it so, that many people of many nations, including the French, should also leave the country they live in, if they have disagreements about it ? I took in most of the points but sorry, not this one.

I wonder how it would be seen, if someone come on here and posted that they live in the UK and some of the immigrants are complaining about one or two things and they had told them all to go home.................different tune perhaps. Countries take praise and, as is life, have to take criticism surely. We all know the Brits take an awful lot but if we on here, told those folks from other countries to "Go Home" due to them having simple disagreements, then perhaps this forum is not so against racism, as it so often tries to make out on occasions.

[LanguedocGal2]

Jon, I have thought for years that Spanish should be the second language taught in UK schools.

I know that economically, Mandarin will become important but I think the Chinese will master English quicker than the English speaking world will master Mandarin.  I remember back in the 80s how people were saying that Japanese was going to take over the world because of its economic impact at the time. I still strongly believe that English and Spanish will be the dominant world languages for a while.

[Blitzen]

[quote user="Jon"]

 Keep it as an option for those who want it, but why bother spending hours trying to teach children something in which most have little or no interest and which gains them no lasting benefit?

[/quote]

Unless children have the opportunity to learn a language, they will not know whether they are interested or what the possibilities are for a lasting benefit.  If any language (probably French, German or Spanish) is taught to children of primary school age, the chances are they will enjoy it.  The broader the curriculum base to start with, the more choices the children have later.  My husband is continually bemoaning the fact that he didn't have an opportunity to learn a foreign language when he was at school, because he didn't pass his 11+, and in those days it was only in Grammar and Technical & Modern schools where modern languages were taught.

I, for one, am very grateful that a modern language was included in my Secondary education.[:D]

[Beryl]

I didn't perceive Domy's comment as being racist, I really didn't.

My perception of it was more along the lines of ' if this is what you want ( English speaking everywhere) you are not going to find it here so go back home ( where you will find English being spoken). I found Wen's comment "This attitude only perpetuates the ignorance of the French people" far more offensive. But it may have been badly phrased.

IMO there are lots of times when telling someone to 'go back home' is clearly a racist thing to say but not this time , for me at least.

[Dick Smith]

Miki - it's marginal. According to Channel 4 it isn't in the least racist of course...

I think in the context it was a hard but ultimately fair comment - and yes, I am applying the 'what if it happened in the UK' criterion to it. Wen comes to France, doesn't like the attitude of the locals, thinks they are conspiring not to speak English - one of the 'locals' then makes the obvious reply - "If you don't like it, why stay? You were mobile enough to get here, presumably you can get back."

Not a nice thing to say, but then the original premise was hardly that, either.

[Wendy]

Dickie babe I get along brilliantly with the locals, have always spoken french to them and some of them lately are finding the confidence to speak a few words of english to me. I hope none of you hold that against them.  I will say though, the difference in the attitude towards us, by one particular cashier at the local Shoppi, this past week has been markedly different ( more friendlier) since she asked where in England I came from and I told her I was not english.  I have encountered this before several times, its amazing how much more approachable some of the french are when they ask if you are english and you say no. Just an interesting observation.

Notice though I did not say 'British' but 'English'.

[Miki]

Beryl,

I never said that what  Domy had to say was racist, I only suggested what would happen on here, if one of us Brits told the story I had mentioned. I agree, Wen might have said it better but being an ocker, she says it, how she has truly found it, something I have tended to do [;-)] It makes things clearer, saves having a sore backside sitting on the proverbial fence [:)]

So yes agreed Dick, Wen might not have said it nice and Domy should not be telling us dear Brits (and Ozzies) to go home if we don't like it here.......but Domy, do keep on posting, it is for some, the way I read it, the only chance they have of contact with a  French person [:D][;-)]

[Garlic]

I think when French people looked like they couldn't understand my French it was quite simply that they couldn't, They still can't alot of the time. Maybe English acquired French is part of the issue. When I speak to my kids English prof or see the work the kids get it is to my mind French acquired English and it sort of works in the broader sense but regions have their own nuances. I live in the Tarn on the Herault border and oh boy do we have an accent. I may in a thousand years be fluent in Tarn French...Just like I was fluent in SE London English but I'll always sound weird and use unknown expressions in Paris just as I would have done in Liverpool...

 

[Dick Smith]

Ah yes, it was ever thus!

Ther was also a Nonne, a PRIORESSE,

That of hir smylyng was ful symple and coy;

Hir gretteste ooth was but by Seinte Loy;

And she was cleped Madame Eglentyne.

Ful weel she soong the service dyvyne,

Entuned in hir nose ful semely,

And Frenssh she spak ful faire and fetisly,

After the scole of Stratford-atte-Bowe,

For Frenssh of Parys was to hir unknowe.

G Chaucer c1400

[Wendy]

Very eloquent Dick...ever wondered why Shakespeares characters never spoke with regional accents though? No thats not a riddle, I really am curious.[blink]

[Dick Smith]

They did, they did, they did!

Think of the great play on regional accents in Henry V - designed to illustrate how Henry united the whole kingdom. Also, in the same play, Henry being taught to speak French...  And in Midsummer Night's Dream, off the top of my head.

There are numbers of examples of regional usage in Shakespeare, remember that the orthography of the period was sufficiently different that subsequent editors have moved the language closer to standard English over the years.