Two thirds of Brits return to the UK within three years?

[Sprogster]

According to a new series called 'Selling houses abroad' that started on Channel 4 at 8.00pm last Tuesday, two thirds of Brits that move to France return to the UK within three years. How accurate this statistic is I am sure is questionable, but  it does highlight what is undoubtedly a very high return rate. 

I am sure there are some forumites who will become defensive in perceiving this in some way as part of the totally irrelevant argument as to which country is better or worse than the other, when it is not.

What it more likely reflects is a lack of adequate planning and realism by the majority that make the move, as to ones ability of being able to earn a living and adapt to a new country without the necessary language skills, which can be more difficult to achieve than they think.

Therefore, forumites who have made the move then returned to the UK and bravely share their experiences should be commended, as it is part of life to learn from others experiences.

[Bob T]

I saw that program. I was amazed by the "lawyer" who bought a house (in his words, over a few glasses of wine) without really looking at it for £180,000, presumably including estate agents and notaires fees. And then thought that another idiot should come along and give him £182,000 for it presumably plus estate agent and notaires fees.

I thought that the presenter on the program was extreemly rude to the female French estate agent and he obviously knew very little about the house buying and selling systems here.

[Will]

I don't doubt that lack of planning, unreal expectations and poor language skills are the reasons in many cases, but there are plenty of other reasons - lonelines, changes of circumstances, or just an honest realisation that France is not ideal for everybody would probably come near the top of most lists.

Unfortunately any statistic or statement that emanates from that particular programme has to be discounted, it was so full of errors and showed a total lack of understanding and appreciation of the French ways of doing things.

[Teamedup]

I have heard this before, about 2/3rds leaving after 2-3 years in France, or trying to.

Who knows. We get so few posters on here, considering how many brits live in France.

 

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Bob T"]I saw that program. I was amazed by the "lawyer" who bought a house (in his words, over a few glasses of wine) without really looking at it for £180,000, presumably including estate agents and notaires fees. And then thought that another idiot should come along and give him £182,000 for it presumably plus estate agent and notaires fees.

I thought that the presenter on the program was extreemly rude to the female French estate agent and he obviously knew very little about the house buying and selling systems here.

[/quote]

Whlist it was refreshing to see the other side of the story, I agree that he was very patronising to the french agent.  Having said that, I do think that what he was saying is correct - the way a house is presented does affect  its sale price - many people are very superficial and can't look past the colour of the walls / style of the furniture.  But then again, maybe the agent actually liked the ghastly paper - she was, afterall, french.

Kathie

 

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

What it more likely reflects is a lack of adequate planning and realism by the majority that make the move, as to ones ability of being able to earn a living and adapt to a new country without the necessary language skills, which can be more difficult to achieve than they think.

[/quote]

It's not necessarily a lack of anything.   Probably too much optimism.

There are cultural differences that run deeper than language or food.   Here are two that I can see:

- Anglo-Saxon/Protestant/free-market/capitalist/whatever-you-call-it optimism.   A basic belief that if you're willing to work hard, take risks etc, there's at least a possibility that you might end up with loads of dosh.   At least it's worth trying.   It's so completely natural to us, we get it with our mother's milk, it's hard to believe that it's really not like that in France.   Numerous tales of normal, non-stupid people who end up penniless in France bear this out, I think.

- Smudger said in a "Timeline of life in France" recently that in about year 4 you realise that the French are genetically dull.   That's obviously not true, but culturally there's something in it. Under the hail-fellow-well-met surface, there's a basic pessimism about life and a total lack of spontaneity that, once you see it, can get a bit depressing.  On my trips to Britain I'm just overwhelmed by the positiveness there. People actually believe that things could (or should) be different, it's very refreshing!   

At least, that's how I see it.  I guess if you drink a lot of cheap wine it all looks okay.  [:D]   

[powerdesal]

I wouldn't totally disagree with you RG......but... we are not all Protestant    [:)]

[Deimos]

I saw the program and; when I lived in the UK I've seen other programs done by the same guy on selling UK houses. I actually followed the principles he goes on about when preparing my UK house for sale. I then wondered why I was getting 1st viewings and no real interest. Kept telling the estate agent to tell me if the house was not right (after all it is about selling and not my taste/lifestyle). Finally and timidly the agent admitted that the presentation was not right and that these TV programs do not always give the best advice.

However, I did not follow his advice about always ironing my duvet covers before any viewing (something he really did say you should do !!).

I'm afraid that these programs and this presenter in particular do not hold too much credibility for me these days. I have the impression they are more about viewers that and aspect of reality.

Ian

[Bugsy]

Oh no................................that's me in yet another "Minority Group"

[:)][:)][:D][:D]

[TreizeVents]

So this presenter and this programme seem to be a very bad source of information.  Since I am very curious about this, does anyone know any reliable source for this supposed two thirds figure.  I would love to see it.  I certainly agree that there are many perfectly good reasons for deciding to return to the UK, but I just cannot figure the "two thirds in three years".  Doesn't make sense.  Think that there are between 250,000 and 500,000 Brtis living in France.  Figure how many would have to move here for two thrids of them to leave and still have that number here.  I would love to see the actual source, given this unreliable programme.

I won't go into the many reasons why a non-fluent in French, not rich, used to manners and decent behaviour, law respecting, familiar with reliable service type of person might leave France and go home.  On the other hand, anyone who thinks that the UK is so wonderful must have serious blinkers.

[Misty1]

I saw that programme too and was amazed at the Lawyer's actions in buying the house without even giving his wife the courtesy of an option!!  He is obviously a man who is used to getting his own way and riding rough-shod over the feelings of others - this is borne out by his amazement that the house was not selling!  However I do think the Agents were not doing anything to sell his house and the French Estate Agent was not exactly the most genial and sales-orientated person we have ever seen - I would certainly not have appointed them to sell my house!  I was also amazed that the couple did not have 'the time' or money to wield a paintbrush themselves, it was obvious what needed doing, I think they just couldn't be bothered.  I thought it was a lovely house with loads of potential and wish I could have had a go at it.

  I don't agree that the Estate Agent liked the house as it was - she agreed it looked much better after, I think she was trying to justify the Agency's lack lustre performance.  If they don't know the market they shouldn't be doing the job.  I do agree however that the presenter did harangue her rather nastily, but selling houses is a cut-throat business in any country as it always is when there are thousands of pounds at stake, and surely people know this when they take up the job?

Its also my view that the 'house in the sun' programmes always show property at far less than the price you would find on the internet - it never seems that cheap when I look for property.  It could be that to get on the programme Agents are discounting prices in order to attract buyers to the areas featured and making a special 'deal' or simply trying harder to find appropriate property than the services that we tried.  Or its possible that the programmes are filmed months/years in advance and prices have gone up by the time we see them.  Even so it is disappointing to see such viable prices on the shows then realise you can't get anything for that in reality.  When we saw 'real' situations like this programme, the prices were much more what you would expect ie. real prices.

I loved the programme and can't wait to see it next week.

[Baz]

[quote user="TreizeVents"]So this presenter and this programme seem to be a very bad source of information.  Since I am very curious about this, does anyone know any reliable source for this supposed two thirds figure.  I would love to see it.  I certainly agree that there are many perfectly good reasons for deciding to return to the UK, but I just cannot figure the "two thirds in three years".  Doesn't make sense.  Think that there are between 250,000 and 500,000 Brtis living in France.  Figure how many would have to move here for two thrids of them to leave and still have that number here.  I would love to see the actual source, given this unreliable programme.

[/quote]

TV, I can understand your concern about 2/3rds returning in 3 years. However, I do believe that this figure may be correct as on a number of occasion over the past few years the figure of 50% within 2 years has been quoted in papers such as the Times, Telegraph ,Guardian and Mail. Whilst I always take what the papers say with a pinch of salt but because this figure has been quoted on a number of different times there may well be an element of truth.

I think this forum gives a fair overall picture of individual views on life in France coupled with the occasional failures. But as I suspect it is human nature not to write about the failures maybe one does not get a true impartial impression when reading some of the topics. I should add that these return figures to the UK will not only apply to France but also to some other countries.

Baz

[hastobe]

[quote user="Misty1"]

Its also my view that the 'house in the sun' programmes always show property at far less than the price you would find on the internet - it never seems that cheap when I look for property.  It could be that to get on the programme Agents are discounting prices in order to attract buyers to the areas featured and making a special 'deal' or simply trying harder to find appropriate property than the services that we tried.  Or its possible that the programmes are filmed months/years in advance and prices have gone up by the time we see them.  Even so it is disappointing to see such viable prices on the shows then realise you can't get anything for that in reality.  When we saw 'real' situations like this programme, the prices were much more what you would expect ie. real prices.

[/quote]

Are you looking in the same area as the house shown last week?

Kathie

[LanguedocGal]

I don’t know how accurate or not the 'official' figures are and I didn’t see the Channel 4 programme (Didn’t know Ch4 was available in France[8-)]). Personal experience; out of five 40sth Brits who moved to France between early 2003 and early 2006, three have already returned to the UK.

I also think the ‘stage of life’ is a fairly important factor but that’s another thread.

 

[YCCMB]

More personal experience: when we bought our house (fully intending it to be a holiday home for the medium term) we were staying at a local hotel for a couple of nights, awaiting completion and the purchase of furniture. We met an English family, and through them more Brits, and it transpired that within a 3 week period, 3 other families had arrived in the surrounding area, and another couple who had a holiday home in the village centre had retired and moved permanently to France. So, 5 families in total, 4 of whom were now permanent residents. That was 5 years ago

End of year one: first family return after huge problems, both finance and alcohol-related.........Others still doing OK, one family set up in business, another running gites. Retirees still comfortable and happy.

End of year two: Everyone still there, some other new arrivals in the area. First family now having to cope with husband commuting to Paris to work Mon-Fri, others still managing but financially quite tight. Retirees still comfortable and happy

End of year three: Family with husband commuting initially talk of moving to a larger town, then finally decide to sell up and move back to UK. Second family husband gets a job back in UK while wife remains in France. Retirees: same old, same old.

Today: retirees still there, C&H as per previous years, one family now back working in UK and using their house as a holiday home, other family's house still on the market awaiting a buyer, as is the house of the family who went back at the end of year one!!!

 

 

 

[Patf]

I didn't see the programme - is it possible that they included holiday homes in the count, then this would explain the large proportion of returns. I've said before that out of at least 30 british families we have met here in the last 5 years not one has gone back. Maybe it's something to do with the Gers. There is one elderly couple, the husband has had cancer, and they are trying to sell and return. Pat.

[Chancer]

I thought that his comments about the desirability of the original kitchen showed a complete ignorance of the French market (as seen by French buyers) he said something like everybody expects a fitted kitchen these days (maybe true in the UK but most buyers change it straight away) but most French buyers would be bringing their appliances from their last home, especially if rented.

To my mind the kitchen was very good by French standards, it certainly only looked like a "make over" afterwards but they had got rid of the bar area which in my region is a must have for French buyers.

Still if you want to pressure sell your house to Brits getting off the plane like a timeshare tout......

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

<shudders at thought of even having to visit England, let alone having to return there permenantly>

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Patf"]I didn't see the programme - is it possible that they included holiday homes in the count, then this would explain the large proportion of returns. I've said before that out of at least 30 british families we have met here in the last 5 years not one has gone back. Maybe it's something to do with the Gers. There is one elderly couple, the husband has had cancer, and they are trying to sell and return. Pat.[/quote]

Yes, that is more our experience.  My wife and I have been trying to think of all the British people we know, not a lot, but still, well into double figures.  Some have returned, or are about to.  Not so much for reasons of not settling in France, but more for reasons why you might move somewhere in Britain and then move somewhere else because of job or loved ones or whatever.  One couple genuinely could not settle because it was too foreign.  Maybe they count holiday homes, which is kind of silly.  In any case, the best we could come up with was 15-20% if we included even the guy who has a new sweetie and wants to move to another foreign country to be with her.  He speaks fluent French and will keep his house here.  I think that figure is a load of codswallop.

Although sometimes I think of going back.

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Patf"]I've said before that out of at least 30 british families we have met here in the last 5 years not one has gone back. Maybe it's something to do with the Gers.  Pat.[/quote]

Patf, I don’t think the figures are all that surprising when you bear the economic situation of the country in mind as well as the fact that over the last few years, a considerable number of the natives themselves have moved to the UK because of work. In the 90s, I knew many French people in London who did not return to France -though they wanted to - simply because they knew they couldn't get decent jobs in their regions. They must laugh at the Brits who think they can.

Unless your region is incredibly dynamic with good employment opportunities, the people I know would still have left.  They all loved their region.

I am quite interested in a rough idea of the nature of the ‘families’ to which you refer, e.g. age groups and in particular how many are in their late 30s to late 40s. Do you know how they make a living?  With the employment situation in France, unless they are ‘expat-residents’, (job brought them over here) then how do they make a living?

The people I know that left are the really dynamic types who, in reality, simply needed a couple of years career break from stressful jobs in the UK. However, needing a break and entering into enforced semi-retirement due to the bad French economy are completely different things.

Also, as has been said, people sometimes remain because they have no choice.  My friend who left this year, tried to get back to the UK for over a year. If those you know are still in France, on the surface, that could be a success story. However, if they are like the returnees I know, unless you are a close friend, you would never have guessed they had been trying to return.  People can rarely move back quickly after making the decision to do so –those with children in schools and those needing to sell first, must have a tough time deciding. 

I’m not saying that the people you know are in the same situation; merely that it’s at times difficult to know what is truly going on.

If most of those 30 fall into the retired/semi retired and or well-off category (irrespective of age), then the rate of success is self-explanatory. If not, perhaps they should share the ‘Gers’ Brit success story. It could be very useful to others, especially the economically active; as I would guess that this could be the group with a high number of returnees. 

On a personal level, I was fully aware that moving to France when I did was potential economic suicide (this is where not moving to fantasy France is important), and so was probably a little better prepared than many, nonetheless, the jury is still out on the economic suicide part[8-)]

So, what is the Gers secret for the economically active?

[Val_2]

I saw the programme as well and was flabbergasted by the stupidity and naiivity of the people except the couple in Spain with the off-plan right near the motorway. The cave dwellings, well what you could say about that except who buys a mud hole without expert investigation first, which is what it turned out to be and the house in France,well for a start who paints straight over wallpaper especially patterned just like that. Wonder if the buyers went straight in and ripped it all off. The kitchen looked horrible with nasty cheap fittings b eing put, personally speaking I have never understood the need to do a place up and I think the french feel the same. Having a blank canvas to put your mark on the place is more appealing than someone else's taste in decor and furnishings especially if you are bringing a different type of furniture and idea to the house.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Val_2"]The kitchen looked horrible with nasty cheap fittings b eing put in[/quote]

I agree - absolutely naff.  Having said that, we looked at a lot of French houses and didn't see a single kitchen we liked.  At the moment we have an MFI style kitchen, with tiled worktops (pretty good, I guess, by French standards) - but we really don't like it (the expression 'chrome and plastic' comes to mind).  We have just started replacing it and had a local carpenter make an oak kitchen unit with double belfast sink and hardwood drainer.  My french neighbour's opinion?  She popped in to put some milk in the fridge the day  we were due to arrive and telephoned us aghast - Did we know they had put in an awful old fashioned sink? And that they had left the work surface untiled (the hardwood drainer!).  She asked why we didn't  have a proper stainless sink unit like theirs!!! 

On a similar note (well loosely related to kitchens)  what is it with the French and vegetables?  Our neighbours won't eat vegetables unless they are cooked to oblivion.  They think 'English vegetables' - i.e. those with any colour or texture, are inedible!  It's the same when you eat out - negligible vegetables and those you do get are limp, soggy and overcooked.

Kathie

[RumziGal]

True, on of our friends is wont to serve plain boiled cauliflower as a starter.   Apparently dribbling olive oil on it makes it really good.  [:-))]

Anyway, I can deal with plain boiled cauliflower, but this is boiled almost into oblivion!   When I've served them vegetables, they've said "mmm, it's still a bit crunchy, that's interesting".  

What can you do?   It's funny really, that we give ourselves the reputation for over-boiling veg.  We shouldn't be so hard on ourselves!  [:)]

 

[RumziGal]

[quote user="J.R."]

but they had got rid of the bar area which in my region is a must have for French buyers.

[/quote]

I have never seen a French house with a bar in it!

[Sprogster]

In another similar forum (the one that must not be named!) there is a section on selling up and moving on and back, that attracts an active number of posts.

I suggested a while back that this forum should add a similar section, as it is clearly a popular area of ongoing discussion.