RMI and other benefits under review

[Clair]

RMI beneficiaries and beneficiaries of other allocations will have to undergo a lifestyle and property review.

Details in French here: http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/economie/social/0,,3677389,00-rmistes-trop-riches-bientot-sanctionnes-.html

Google translation here.

[cooperlola]

I liked "Dercy's" feedback comment!

[Clair]

What about this one:

Je ne vois que des avantages

à cette règlementation qui permettra de mettre un terme au tourisme

fiscal que pratiquent certains citoyens de l'Union (Britanniques pour

ne pas les citer) qui vendent leurs biens en GB et obtiennent le RMI en

se déclarant sans revenu. Reste à savoir si les services sociaux feront

leur boulot de contrôle. Jusqu'à présent, cela n'a pas été le cas.

Stanmerk, Paris

I see only advantages in this regulation which will put an end to fiscal tourism practiced by certain citizens of the Union (British) who sell the property in GB and acquire the MINIMUM BENEFIT here declaring hemselves with no income. It remain to be seen if the social services will do their control work. Until now, it was not case.

Stanmerk, Paris

(auto translation)

[cooperlola]

Hmm.  Although personally, I've yet to encounter a Brit on RMI but I guess they exist.

[Tony F Dordogne]

I know several in this area - they declare next to no income and get RMI because of their lack of returnable income.  But, one family I know (registered but lots of work on the black) have just had their accountant refuse to submit their tax return because their income can't be that low.  And another guy I know bragged that he earned 20k on the black (and he was in full time 'work' but all on the black) and got RMI because of his low tax return.  And that's not counting the Brit family in our village who have 'no income' and get RMI but manage to live here very nicely, leading a very active social life funded by their undeclared UK income.

I think that eventually the French will look at the Al Capone attack - if you earn so little you get RMI, how did you manage to feed, cloth, live with your familt for the whole of last year?

[cooperlola]

This is however, not just a French problem is it?  There are cheats everywhere - sadly if they speak with a British accent here they are more obvious - but there are plenty of native French "au noir" also, n'est-ce pas?

[Clair]

I have watched in wonderment at how far my 50 year-old French neighbour could stretch his RMI...

He lives with his mother in her house, so no rent or utilities to pay,

no local taxes either, no food costs, as she cooks for him.

Once or twice a week, an old van or pick-up will turn up in his yard and a few bales of hay will find their way out of his barn in exchange for some hard cash.

To be honest, he did work for about a month during the spring and summer, cutting all that hay!

In 2007, he managed to spend some time in Nice, Venice, Paris and Corsica...

He must be very thrifty! [:D][Www]

[Patf]

I've looked up RMI on google and it seems that if a single person has income less than 389,10€ pm the govt. make it up to that amount. A couple, 583,65€. Is this correct?

[Sunday Driver]

http://www2.caf.fr/wps/portal/particuliers/catalogue/metropole/rmi

Single person - 440,86€ pm

Couple - 661,29€ pm

 

 

[Clair]

Slight increase from Jan 1st 08:

 Montant de l'allocation de revenu minimum d'insertion (RMI)

Montant maximum de l'allocation depuis le 1er janvier 2008 :

Nombre d'enfants	Personne seule	En couple
0	447,91 EUR	671,87 EUR
1	671,87 EUR	806,24 EUR
2	806,24 EUR	940,62 EUR
Par enfant supplémentaire	Plus 179,16 EUR	Plus 179,16 EUR

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/

[Deimos]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

I know several in this area - they declare next to no income and get RMI because of their lack of returnable income.  But, one family I know (registered but lots of work on the black) have just had their accountant refuse to submit their tax return because their income can't be that low.  And another guy I know bragged that he earned 20k on the black (and he was in full time 'work' but all on the black) and got RMI because of his low tax return.  And that's not counting the Brit family in our village who have 'no income' and get RMI but manage to live here very nicely, leading a very active social life funded by their undeclared UK income.

[/quote]

But do they all have loads of capital from e.g. the sale of their property in the UK.  French as as good as the British when it comes to working on the black and fiddling things like the RMI, not declaring income, etc. (my impression anyway).  However, what seems to cause the agro is Brits who are supposedly "capital rich" but have "no income".  People seem to ignore the fact that owning capital generates income (either at regular intervals or when investments mature) and tax, etc. is payable on that.  The capital rich, no income can only be those incompetent who cannot even understand putting cash in a savings account and getting interest.

Ian

[Boiling a frog]

How many times have we read on this and other forums "I have no income"

Then admit to living on the proceeds of the english house sale.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

How many times have we read on this and other forums "I have no income"

Then admit to living on the proceeds of the english house sale.

[/quote]Technically, they are correct, if they are living on the capital, rather than the interest, I guess - although Ian is right - surely there's some interest which is taxable coming from the capital that's lying around unless they are complete mugs and keep it all in an ordinary current account?

Q:  My neighbour came over here two years ago seeking work.  She sold up in the UK and has spent the last couple of years doing renovations and polishing her language skills, and is now employed.  During the interim period she did indeed live off the difference between the amount she got for her UK house and what she paid for the French one.  But she was told quite categorically that she was not entitled to claim any benefits here, even though she could technically have been classed as not having an income beyond a small amount of interest (which, I am sure would have been below the monthly figures quoted in this post).  So precisely how do these people who claim RMI manage to get it, given that their circumstances are presumably similar?

[Clair]

Rent out a UK property, keep the proceeds in the UK and fail to declare it in France?

[Georgina]

Thanks for the advice Claire [:D]

 

But seriously I thought you could only get benefits here if you worked here first for a period. Do people get benefits before they have even worked in France then?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Georgina"]

Thanks for the advice Claire [:D]

 

But seriously I thought you could only get benefits here if you worked here first for a period. Do people get benefits before they have even worked in France then?

[/quote]That's what I thought, Georgina, I must say.

[Clair]

[quote]... I thought you could only get benefits here if you worked here first for

a period. Do people get benefits before they have even worked in France

then?[/quote]

This is correct as far as unemployment benefit is concerned.

As far as I know, one can get RMI if one's income in the preceding 3 months are below the ceiling mentioned in previous posts. It is not automatically granted, hiowever, once someone is in receipt of RMI, other benefits or reduced taxes are automatically allocated: lower cost electricity (up to a ceratin amount), CMU-B and/or CMU-C, reduced taxe d'habitation...

I don't know how about children-related benefits...

[Boiling a frog]

You will certainly get FREE(thats a dirty word) health care via CMUB and CMUC if your income is below a certain level altho again under the new antifraud measures they are going to have a lifestyle examination if they think people are at it .

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]You will certainly get FREE(thats a dirty word) health care via CMUB and CMUC if your income is below a certain level altho again under the new antifraud measures they are going to have a lifestyle examination if they think people are at it .[/quote]If it's free, then surely it's CMU-C only?  Although I guess that's just being pedantic.

[Logan]

[quote user="Clair"]Rent out a UK property, keep the proceeds in the UK and fail to declare it in France?
[/quote]

A few years ago I was approached by the head of my Maison de Impot informally, during a period I was under an unpleasant control for business reasons. He asked me if I would be interested in a position investigating British people living in France and carrying on 'illegal' financial activities in UK. In other words undeclared income and capital gains stashed in Britain. I was offered civil service status, with good salary, expenses and pension benefits. I declined politely citing business commitments. However I have always assumed that the Impot have many such people still beavering away.

[Benjamin]

In our first year of declaring in France when we visited their office to check that we'd completed the declaration correctly we were questioned very closely when we were showing that apart from some split UK bank interest all of our income was in Mrs Benjamin's name and I was virtullay incomeless (is there such a word?).

The one area that we were questioned on closely was UK property and any rental income that we might be getting. When we said that we didn't have any UK property we were then asked when we had disposed of it?

Nothing heavy you understand but this area of possible undeclared income features clearly in the Impôt's mind.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]You will certainly get FREE(thats a dirty word) health care via CMUB and CMUC if your income is below a certain level altho again under the new antifraud measures they are going to have a lifestyle examination if they think people are at it .[/quote]If it's free, then surely it's CMU-C only?  Although I guess that's just being pedantic.[/quote]

 

No you get CMU Base if your Revenue fiscal de reference is below approx 8000 euros(thats what those who have not been thrown out pay our 8% for)

If your income is below another level you can be entitled to free CMU C as well.

If you receive RMI you automatically qualify for Free CMU B and Free CMU C

[cooperlola]

Thanks BaF, although this still seems illogical to me!   Just when I was beginning to think I had this sussed!  But to be fair to me, we have had very few enquiries from anybody on very low incomes.  Most of those affected who have contacted us have been or would have been payers.

[Tony F Dordogne]

I would have thought that world wide income would have included interest on investments?  So even tho people may have no earned income or pension, but are living on the interest they receive or their capital, it's still returnable as they still have a declarable income which may or may not be enough to trigger benefit payments or taxation.

[sunshine 2]

Tony - yes of course world wide income includes all income from investments, interest from savings etc.  But as CPAM have a copy of your French tax return then all this is on there, as well as being filled in on the form that one completes each Sept for CPAM.  However, the more checks they put in place to check that everyone is declaring everything then the better.