Wife-beating and no, this ain't no joke!

[Patf]

Good advice Pads.

Cerise - thanks for the support. You explained well what I meant.

I should imagine that alcohol plays a part in it too.

 

[nectarine]

it's not unknown, at our last village apparently it was local knowledge that a man was raping his daughters, but no-one did anything about it until one of the daughters went to the police years afterwards. He went to jail and his wife was then ignored and shunned by people .... I don't know whether she knew.

And recently a charitable group I'm with made a donation to a local domestic violence unit and their representative said that they actually have a few English women in their safehouse! But she said that, mostly, it was Arab women where it seemed endemic that the men beat them as part of their culture.

It doesn't make it right but we're an enlightened society in the UK, but there's still pockets of France with people living in traditions from a long time ago.

[Frenchie]

" Every school pupil in England is to be taught that domestic violence against women and girls is unacceptable, as part of a new government strategy.

Under the plans, from 2011 children will be taught from the age of five how to prevent violent relationships

Recent research by the children's charity NSPCC found one in four girls, some as young as 13, had been slapped or hit by their boyfriends.

It also found one in nine had been beaten up, hit by objects or strangled.

Christine Barter, NSPCC senior research fellow at Bristol University, said it was a significant problem that had not been addressed.

She suggested the problem arose from teenage girls' "unequal power relationships" with boyfriends - a feature of violent adult relationships too.

She said it was particularly disconcerting that these girls were not telling anyone about the violence.

Plans will also see the piloting of domestic violence protection orders - or "Go" orders - which could see perpetrators excluded from their homes and give victims space to apply for longer-term protection.

A health taskforce set up to examine the role of the NHS in response to female victims of violence will publish recommendations in 2010.

There were 293,000 incidents of domestic violence in 2008/09, with 77% of the victims women, according to the British Crime Survey.

However, the government estimates up to one million women experience at least one incident of domestic abuse every year.

Harriet Harman, minister for women and equality, said tackling violence against women and girls was one of the government's top priorities and prevention was critical to long-term change.

"We have to work to change attitudes in order to eliminate violence against women and girls and to make it clear beyond doubt that any form of violence against women is unacceptable," she said. "  SOURCE =BBC News online, Wednesday, 25 November 2009.

 

Please stop making it a marginal phenomenon in the UK and a widely spread one in France, it does not correspond to reality!

On average, 2 women in England and Wales are killed every week by a current or former male partner.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="nectarine"]

It doesn't make it right but we're an enlightened society in the UK, ...............................

[/quote]

Really !!

That's a different UK to the one I know.

Frenchie is quite right, domestic violence is not confined to any one country, its pretty-well a world-wide problem.

.

[Cerise]

Frenchie - I didn't mean to be insulting, but I live in La France Profonde and sadly locally much of society DOES still condone domestic violence _ or at least not speak out against it. Of course it is a problemin the UK too and I don't think anyone would deny it but I do think we have a cultural difference now (it was different 40 or 50 years ago) which makes it easier for women to get out.

One of the reasons cited for wanting to live in france is that it is like the Uk 50 years ago - well as member of local CCAS I can confirm that there some very dated attitudes to things like domestic problems, handicaps etc. I have a local friend who has a handicapped son and though she is lovely, intelligent person people still make stupid remarks about it must be something she 'did' to have this son.

Of course, there are lots of nice, kind, enlightened people too. For the majority of foreigners the fact that the rural French don't easily discuss problems with anyone outside their own families means that much of this is hidden.

[mint]

Cerise, you put it so well.  Of course, even I, in my sheltered existence, know about these things.  But, I was shocked to my very being to think that this domestic violence is so close to me here in France and, when I heard from my French friend that it's "fréquent", I was horrified.

Of course, there is no escape for madame la voisine; she is in her 60s and has probably got thoroughly used to ill-treatment by now.  No economic independence and certainly no knowledge that another existence is possible. 

For me, it's wool pulled from my eyes and I haven't yet recovered from the shock or the disgust!

I don't think that in the UK, one could say, by the way, so-and-so's been hitting his wife and got quite the same complacent response as I have got here.

[Patf]

I would say "fatalistic" rather than "complacent", SW17.

I wonder how the divorce rate compares betwen the UK and France? Does anyone know?

I still think that if it's correct that domestic violence is more tolerated here, it could be due to the fact that it's more difficult for married couples to split up. Mainly due to financial/inheritance reasons.

Many people on this forum have been married twice. Just imagine what it would have been like if you were forced to stay with spouse no°1. Murder in some cases.

[mint]

Thank you, Pat, for the correction.  Yes, "fatalistic" does describe it better than "complacent" but, whatever, it's shocking all the same, don't you think?

This poor woman grew up in the next town from here, has lived with her husband for goodness knows how many years (he's 71 and she's 68), has borne him 8 children, has suffered goodness knows how many indignities at his hands in all of that time.

I have seen her riding her velo up and down the busy road past our house whilst he drives past in his Mercedes, have heard her ask my husband to take her to the bike shop for a new wheel, spare part, whatever; indeed I watch her day after day (sometimes several times a day) using our garden as a short cut to take the rubbish to the communal poubelle or to her son's house.

All I can say is, I have never observed anything similar in all the time that I lived in the UK and so I cannot think that whatever domestic abuse happens in the UK, it is accepted with such matter-of-fact-ness as here in France.

To think that it happens at all is bad enough but to know that it is happening on my doorstep is something that saddens and horrifies me at one and the same time.

[Christine Animal]

Sweet, you have been shocked to find this out about people you know.  But it's not only France because they are supposed to be fifty years behind.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-80277435.html

 

[mint]

You are right, of course, Christine.  It's my own complacency and living in my little cocooned world that has cushioned me from what is going on in the wider world generally.

It's taken something that is happening in front of my very eyes that has woken me up.

[Frenchie]

You all know how anglophile I am, there are things I love about the UK, that s for sure, but if we are 50 years behind, well, I'm not impatient for my country to be 50 years ahead, when I see the turn certain things have taken in England.

This being said , what irritated me is the fact that some people seem to think that France is a backward country , the countryside being populated by uneducated people who beat their wives and everybody accepts it . 

NO !   If you live in a village where you think this is the case, it does not represent the whole of the rural world in any way, and it is a prejudice to think so.

Moreover, as I said before, domestic violence against women happens in all social classes, there are doctors and lawyers and Bankers [;-)] who beat their wives, so please, try and get more info about it.

The sad fact is that it happens all over europe ( yes, the UK is supposed to be part of Europe..) and in all social classes.

Now in France it is less and less of a taboo, women now know they can have help, we regularly have campains against it on TV and in the press and on posters. here are a few examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvGVPa-KsDw

The latest one, hope you understand what he says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akz85xykw7Q

[Christine Animal]

The TGV is not fifty years behind.   [8-|]

 

[mint]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

You all know how anglophile I am, there are things I love about the UK, that s for sure, but if we are 50 years behind, well, I'm not impatient for my country to be 50 years ahead, when I see the turn certain things have taken in England.

Frenchie, this isn't about being anglophile or francophile or which country is ahead or in front of the other by 50 years.  Nasty things, including wifebeating happens in both countries and posters here have said so.  

This being said , what irritated me is the fact that some people seem to think that France is a backward country , the countryside being populated by uneducated people who beat their wives and everybody accepts it .

No, not quite right, Frenchie.  But remember that it was my FRENCH friend who was able to name a number of villages near here where wifebeating occurs and it was the way she said that it was terrible but that it was quite frequent that was shocking. 

NO !   If you live in a village where you think this is the case, it does not represent the whole of the rural world in any way, and it is a prejudice to think so.

Please don't upset yourself.  I am certain that NOBODY on here thinks htat what happens in one village represents the whold of the rural world in anyway.

Moreover, as I said before, domestic violence against women happens in all social classes, there are doctors and lawyers and Bankers [;-)] who beat their wives, so please, try and get more info about it.

Yes, indeed, that MUST be the case.  I am sure it happens across the social spectrum.  If you were a sociologist or even an anthropologist, you would be drawing conclusions and correlations from the things you observe and, if you see wifebeating, then you will want to perhaps look at the incidence of wifebeating and want to see where it occurs most frequently.

A few posters have said that this is not uncommon in the countryside in France:  they do NOT say that it doesn't happen elsewhere in France or that it doesn't happen in the UK or in Europe or in other parts of the world.

If people living in French rural villages tell me that wifebeating is something that takes place, then I have to bear in mind that it is just possible that this phenomenon (see I am now even using a sociology term) happens in these places more than elsewhere.  I have no PROOF (same as I have no proof as such that my neighbour beats his wife, which is why I was careful to start my original post with the time-honoured "Rumour has it...") but then I daresay that this is very much a hidden problem and that no amount of officially published statistics can give me a true picture.  However, I have my reasoning and my commonsense to rely on and, once people have come on to tell me that yes, it does happen around them, then, these annecdotal evidence will have to sway my thinking.

With my own eyes and ears, I have seen the way M le Voisin and Madame la Voisine behaves and I am now fully convinced that this dreadful thing is happening practically on my doorstep.  I can't explain now why I blithely went through the last 2 years noticing nothing and having no inkling of this.  Please believe that my own ignorance and blindness have been totally shameful and my upset is as much to do with my own complacency as poor madame's plight which after all hasn't changed for years.

The sad fact is that it happens all over europe ( yes, the UK is supposed to be part of Europe..) and in all social classes.

Now in France it is less and less of a taboo, women now know they can have help, we regularly have campains against it on TV and in the press and on posters. here are a few examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvGVPa-KsDw

The latest one, hope you understand what he says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akz85xykw7Q

[/quote]

As stated in an earlier post, it's not that I doubt that there is help available.  It is that the very victims that the help is aimed at are unable to access it.  As an example, my neighbour is now 68, she is an ignorant, uneducated woman.  She has brought up a family of 8 children and has known nothing but life in that house up the lane where she lives.  This is a community on the edge of nowhere.  What good are these refuges to someone like her?

Frenchie, it's not that people are drawing the wrong conclusion or generalising from the particular cases that they know about.  This is not an attack on France or the French.  It is a concern about domestic violence that is being discussed.

[Frenchie]

Sweets, you know I have nothing against you!

You should maybe re read the thread from the beginning, it gives me the general feeling that France is a backward country where uneducated people from the countryside beat their wives and nobody cares, the French find it normal, and you are different in culture, this wouldn't happen in the UK, it is an elightened society, etc..

I'm not the only one to have perceived it this way !! ( cf thread)

It has nothing to do with Fce vs England, which would be ridiculous and puerile, it is just about facts and the fact that I don't like stereotypes, the figures speak fr themselves. ( cf my previous threads.)

If I could write in French I could make myself understood much better.

 

[Christine Animal]

Sweet, until you heard these rumours, did you notice that your neighbour looked unhappy and suffering?  You know in "rural France" there are a lot of on dit and ragots.  I'm not saying it's not true, but is it really as bad as they say.  That is something I suppose we shall never be able to know without the proof and that is why it is difficult to intervene or do anything about it except, as Pads said, to try to make her feel good and support her morally.

 

[mint]

Frenchie, I guess we are all upset by this wife beating business and, in a way, I am now sorry I have brought it up.

I was horrified and shocked and I wanted to see what other people's experience is.  It's bad enough reading about it but being faced with it (albeit as a mere bystander) is not something to be easily brushed aside.

Perhaps it's time that this thread is put to rest.  There will be disagreements, and disagreements can be very healthy, but I do think that everyone who has posted condemns domestic violence and knows that it's not confined to French rural life.

I have re-read the thread, as you suggest, Frenchie, but I can't honestly say that what's come across most strongly is about the Brits being different or superior in anyway when it comes to domestic violence.  What does appear to be said is that there is one particular social group in France where wife beating is almost a way of life and is widely accepted.

Look, it's no different really than saying that soccer violence or getting p i s s e d out of your mind, for example, are commonplace in British life.  Yes, it is widely observed and accepted in large areas of British life but that doesn't mean that people condone or turn a blind eye to it.

Sometimes, as individuals, we are all helpless and, as long as the bods that run the country have no political will to do something constructive, then the problem, whatever it is, gets swept under the carpet and is largely ignored.

And, you, of course, know that I wouldn't cause you to be upset deliberately![:)]

[Christine Animal]

"What does appear to be said is that there is one particular social group in France where wife beating is almost a way of life and is widely accepted."

That I don't agree with and I don't think Frenchie does either.  There is no particular social group and it is not widely accepted.  Noone accepts such a thing, but it is sometimes difficult to do anything as in the case of your neighbour.

 

[mint]

I don't agree either, Christine.  Note, all I said was that that was what appeared to be said.  I doubt that anyone here or elsewhere believes such a thing.

[woolybanana]

OK, Christine, but from my own observations, I think that there is a substantial amount of abuse in the unskilled and semi-skilled agricultural community and those who scratch a living round it, as well as amongst some farmers themselves. I have seen it, heard it, talked about it (indirectly).

But I must say that there are a hell of a lot of loose doors in France too and the all manage to hit straight in the eye!

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

  There is no particular social group and it is not widely accepted.  No one accepts such a thing, but it is sometimes difficult to do anything as in the case of your neighbour.

 

[/quote]

This is exactly what I think. Merci Christine.

[Clair]

My elderly neighbour (now deceased) told me several times that her (favourite) son sometimes beat his ex-wife during their marriage. According to her, she deserved it ("Elle le méritait.")

My younger neighbour told me a similar story, where the ex-wife stormed into her yard one lunchtime, shouting to her to call the gendarmes, as her ex-husband, the favourite son, was chasing her to beat her. She did call the gendarmes.

The man in question is a farmer in his early fifties.

I had several conversations with my elderly neighbour about it and we never agreed on this point.

There was never any doubt that, to her, it was part and parcel of married life. She herself considered herself "lucky" that her husband not beat her and would only get drunk a few times a year.

She also told her grandson he was lucky his mother's boyfriend did not beat him.

[Hoddy]

Wife beating is not the preserve of any nation or any educational level. I spent a few days working in the women's refuge in Cincinatti. The women there had been beaten by men who were university professors, illiterate Kentucky hillbillies and many stages in between. I suspect that there is a case in my own village here in the UK. Like the couple originally mentioned those concerned are elderly and have an extensive family in the vicinity. For all the reasons already suggested nothing is likely to be done about it. There are no easy answers as to why this happens and the best ways to stop it.

I suppose providing shelters and support for those who dare to leave is one constructive way of going about it. I also think that direct education like that proposed by the British government might help. I well remember a pupil in one of my classes when this subject came under discussion telling me proudly that he would never beat his wife 'unless she deserved it'. He was quite proud of this so we clearly have a long way to go in some respects.

Hoddy

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

OK, Christine, but from my own observations, I think that there is a substantial amount of abuse in the unskilled and semi-skilled agricultural community and those who scratch a living round it, as well as amongst some farmers themselves. I have seen it, heard it, talked about it (indirectly).

But I must say that there are a hell of a lot of loose doors in France too and the all manage to hit straight in the eye!

[/quote]

Can't agree Wooly, just because you may live a,amongst unskilled and semi skilled does not mean that educated people are not bully's too, I would go so far as to say when you get used to throwing you weight around in a higher position of social status it could be just as easy to take that home and bully and physically abuse the ones close to you. I have witnessed it in the UK from a lawyer and from an overpaid city trader, neither of whom are still with their partners.

I can't remember who carried out the research now but it was a study that showed we are always prepared to lay blame to people beneath our own social standing rather than above as there is considerable discomfort in doing so as they will be judging us.

[woolybanana]

My dear Théière, mine was an example based on experience really and should not be taken as exclusive. At the moment, my neighbour is a tax inspector whose wife has not been seen outside her house for several years. Rumour has it that he imposes this and locks the door when he leaves.

[MrCanary]

Sweet - please don't apologise for bringing this subject up because it is important to talk about issues such as these - very important!

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. What goes on behind a few closed doors in France will be no different to what goes on behind a few closed doors in Germany, America, the UK and so on and so on...

Wife-beating, husband beating, rapes, murder and many other things are illegal in most civilised countries and, in my opinion, it is right to talk about them.