French moving to the UK

[NormanH]

[quote user="Mel"]So, in simple terms, is it the case that French people living in the UK get free healthcare based purely on being resident there without any requirement to actually work?

And before anybody jumps down my throat, I am asking the question - not making a statement...[/quote]

But of course, as any other nationality .

But that is not the case in France or to my knowledge the rest of Europe.

The system in Britain is an exception in principal and practise to that of the rest of Europe.

That is Britain's responsibility and problem, not that of the other countries

The problem arises because British immigrants in France try to impose the British exception in the country that didn't invite them

Could anything be more 'colonialist'  ?

[NormanH]

[quote user="Mel"]So, in simple terms, is it the case that French people living in the UK get free healthcare based purely on being resident there without any requirement to actually work?

And before anybody jumps down my throat, I am asking the question - not making a statement...[/quote]

But of course, as any other nationality .

But that is not the case in France or to my knowledge the rest of Europe.

The system in Britain is an exception in principal and practise to that of the rest of Europe.

That is Britain's responsibility and problem, not that of the other countries

The problem arises because British immigrants in France try to impose the British exception in the country that didn't invite them

Could anything be more 'colonialist'  ?

[NormanH]

[quote user="Mel"]So, in simple terms, is it the case that French people living in the UK get free healthcare based purely on being resident there without any requirement to actually work?

And before anybody jumps down my throat, I am asking the question - not making a statement...[/quote]

But of course, as any other nationality .

But that is not the case in France or to my knowledge the rest of Europe.

The system in Britain is an exception in principal and practise to that of the rest of Europe.

That is Britain's responsibility and problem, not that of the other countries

The problem arises because British immigrants in France try to impose the British exception in the country that didn't invite them

Could anything be more 'colonialist'  ?

[Bugsy]

[quote user="NormanH"]The problem arises because British immigrants in France try to impose the British exception in the country that didn't invite them

[/quote]

Oh Norman, you have no idea how offensive I find that silly 'blanket' remark.

You may, perhaps like to re-phrase it to better reflect the tiny minority that I think, you were aiming at.

.

[mint]

Bugs, refuse to be offended because I do believe that Norman says things just to be provocative.

The UK is way out of line with other countries and it's clearly a nonsense to offer health care to all who are declared "resident".

Stupid, stupid, stupid and irresponsible to their permanent residents.

De-select the lot of them, but how would that work?  They all seem to be totally enamoured of the NHS!

[NormanH]

[quote user="Bugsy"][quote user="NormanH"]The problem arises because British immigrants in France try to impose the British exception in the country that didn't invite them

[/quote]

Oh Norman, you have no idea how offensive I find that silly 'blanket' remark.

You may, perhaps like to re-phrase it to better reflect the tiny minority that I think, you were aiming at.

.

[/quote]

How about

"the problem arises because Britain has a system unlike that of the rest of Europe, and British people who chose to  go and  live in other countries are surprised to discover this and often complain that it is unfair rather than accepting that it is Britain that is the odd man out"

[Quillan]

I don't know Coops if you remember a series of documentaries about the NHS about 6 or 7 years ago. There were two things that stuck in my mind, the expense of operations compared to the private sector which was 20 to 40% cheaper in some cases and the other the charging of non resident people for health care. I would seem that at the time the NHS were allowed to charge people who went to the UK on 'health holidays' but the problem seemed to be the lack of staff and the reluctance to do so. The program showed one hospital in London, can't remember which one, that had one young girl trying to get these people to pay up. She often 'missed' them because information on the services they used turned up weeks after they had gone or they would say they had family in the UK and by the time they had finished their enquiries the person had again left and the family turned out to be bogus. Its a bit like going to a garage, getting a car, giving a false address, taking the car abroad by which time the accounts department has just received the information from the salesman about the car sold. They send out the invoice but the person and the car had long gone. Of course this wouldn't happen, they wouldn't be allowed to leave with the car before they had paid for it, in fact they wouldn't even get their hands on the car till then.

I do think the UK is out of step with the rest of Europe. The most obvious examples are that the UK drives on the opposite side of the road and has different power sockets than the rest of Europe but that's just touching the surface with the most obvious things. There are loads of things that many countries do the same in Europe but the UK does differently that travelling round or living in mainland Europe you notice. I suppose that being an 'island race' has made us more insular and we do have this built in reluctance to change which can be a good or bad thing depending how or from where you view it. Still I guess we are drifting off topic now.

[Will]

Another way of looking at things is that the NHS was, and still is, a pioneer in providing universal access to health care. It's something that many other countries (including France, with the CMU) have tried to emulate, but few have managed it.

Out of step, or out ahead on its own in that respect? - and we are talking only about the actual provision rather than any perceived quality or otherwise of what is provided.

The NHS does have clear rules on access to hospital treatment for non-British nationals, based on the concept of 'ordinary residence' (see http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074374) which are enforced, despite what the tabloid readers and the BNP might believe, and much to the chagrin of a few expats who subsequently want to return to take advantage of the NHS.

Remember too that non-hospital treatment is far from free. It's easy to forget prescription charges, dentists' fees etc.

The NHS has its detractors, but on the whole it is surely something to be proud of.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Will"]

The NHS has its detractors, but on the whole it is surely something to be proud of.

[/quote]Amen to that.  

It isn't until you have to use an inferior system (which I consider the French one, on the whole, to be as it is so admin' heavy and cumbersome to use - not to say costly to the taxpayer) that you realise how easy it is and how well it works, for all its faults.

It makes the whole idea that people come to France as "health tourists" to be, frankly, laughable.  It's very expensive, it's very complicated to use, and all the medical practitioners speak a language that the average Brit can't understand.  Why would anybody want to move here for the healthcare? I must say it certainly was never a factor for me and I very much doubt it was for many sensible people who did any kind of research before moving here.  Nowadays, I can't imagine any early retired person wanting to invest their futures in France or to employ locals, spend their pensions here, contribute their taxes to the French exchequer and do up falling-down and redundant houses in the countryside.  But I can see why young French people will continue to move to the UK, to make use of the health service there, take jobs and start up businesses which would be too costly to get off the ground in their home country, and then they can go back home at the age of 60 and live off a healthcare system in their native country that they have never contributed to during the whole of their working lives.

[KathyF]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Bugs, refuse to be offended because I do believe that Norman says things just to be provocative.

The UK is way out of line with other countries and it's clearly a nonsense to offer health care to all who are declared "resident".

Stupid, stupid, stupid and irresponsible to their permanent residents.

De-select the lot of them, but how would that work?  They all seem to be totally enamoured of the NHS! [/quote]

Are you doing a Norman here, Sweet? [;-)] Not your usual kind of sensible comment. [:)] As someone living in the UK and likely to go on doing so, I'm with Will and Coops on being deeply proud of the only truly universal health care system in the world and would never NEVER vote for anyone who advocated changing that.

If someone has been declared resident, they are resident.  Permanence has nothing to do with it . After all you would have been considered a permanent resident before you came to France.  [:D]

[mint]

Kathy, of course, I'm proud of the NHS!  Despite all comments to the contrary here and people knocking it, I still think that, when the chips are down, the NHS serves you like no other.

Apart from sharing a liking for some types of music, I am delighted to say that I have NOTHING in common whatsoever with Norman![:D]

What I meant was that I do think that sometimes the NHS (and indeed the UK Welfare State) is far too generous.  By including many people, who should perhaps not be included, I fear that it's spreading its resources too thinly.

Rather like the BBC, I suppose:  by trying to be all things to all men, it ends up by satisfying nobody!

[Quillan]

Thought I would share this with you. I have posted this on another thread but it does relate a bit to this one as well. There is going to be a documentary about the French living in London shown on France 5 on the 25th Feb. I found this on a French forum for those French living in London that somebody gave in the other thread. Apparently there are, wait for it, 300,000 French settled in London according to them.

http://www.bonjourlondres.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3967&forum=11&post_id=34973#forumpost34973

If you look further in to the forum they appear to have a few complaints about the NHS as well some of which are quite similar to those that people have mentioned on our forum (about the NHS that is).

[Celine]

In addition there are 21 000 french children receiving a British education in the UK.

[Russethouse]

All the French people I know that live here, work - as theyare paying tax and NI they are entitled to the same benefits as a British person.

It's all very well bandying figures about but unless we know the breakdown it's a bit meaningless isn't it ?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

All the French people I know that live here, work - as they are paying tax and NI they are entitled to the same benefits as a British person.

It's all very well bandying figures about but unless we know the breakdown it's a bit meaningless isn't it ?

[/quote]

Exactly RH but because the English immigrants coming to France are older and come to retire early, well the majority of them, why shouldn't they pay in to the system here to get their health care until they are of official retirement age. That is why the French changed the law yet the UK hasn't. I think its quite simple, you pay in then you can use system, if you don't pay in you have to arrange health care yourself. The only thing I thought was wrong was applying the law retrospectively, they should have said something like "from this date onwards" and that should have been the date it became law. You can't change the game half way through. By the way I am talking about the English but we are not the only ones. I suspect the Belgians, Dutch, Germans and many other nationalities were also suffered under the changes.

As to the figures to be honest I was very surprised it was so high, I know there's quite a few in London but that seems a lot.

[Clarkkent]

It astonishes me to see that there are still references to France having the best healthcare system in the world.

This, of course, relates to the WHO document published in 2001, based on survey material collected in 1997. At the time of its publication there were many who questioned its validity and the decisions taken in determining the weightings given to the various factors involved in determining the outcome. It was not a survey of clinical practice but was mainly concerned with financial systems underpinning health delivery. Clinical effectiveness only accounted for 25% of the overall rating.

I recall that the NHS was rubbished at the time because the UK came "only" 18th. A glance at the rankings show that the UK came behind San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Monaco and Iceland - hardly industrial or economic heavyweights - and ahead of Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, Australia and the USA. In fact, there were 171 countries with a lower ranking than the UK. The rankings were a statistical smokescreen - if you lived in any one of the top 50 or so you had a pretty good deal in health terms. But that was 1997 - thirteen years ago.

If I visit my group practice in England, I have the services of general practitioners, health visitors, district nurses, a pharmacy, a counsellor and clinics for pregnant women, mothers and babies, well-woman and well-man clinics, an asthma clinic, a holiday vaccination service, a minor surgery clinic and possibly more. All under one roof! And this is one practice out of four in a town of about 25,000.

I am pleased to receive the services of the NHS, and I don't mind sharing them with Poles, Ukranians, Iraqis and others who live and work locally. And I am proud that, at the point of first contact at least, I am not asked for payment or evidence of insurance or other eligibility. When I am in France, I am pleased to receive the attention that the French health system is able to give me.

[Quillan]

I think you may find there been an update since then and the UK is around 24th or perhaps lower, I can't remember. Somebody did post a link recently to the information if you want to go looking for it, I think France is still number 1.

This is why I say its a post code lottery. The practice we used to use in London (Docklands) was new when we moved there. We had 4 or 5 receptionists and about 8 doctors and one nurse. Unless you were physically dying you had to wait 3 or 4 days to see a doctor and you never appeared to see the same one twice. Speaking to my father-in-law who still uses the same practice things have not changed and the waiting time is even longer.

We lived in Kent for the final year before coming to France. Our practice there had 2 receptionists a nurse and 3 doctors, if you phoned up at 09:00 you were in front of a docter by 09:30, a massive difference to London.

Judging by some of the work my wife does there is definitely differences between areas in the UK, some are excellent and others are very poor. I am sure that I must live in a good area in France as I have read more than once people on this forum complaining about the levels of health care they have received here yet mine is perfect. So overall its down to being in the right place be you living in the UK or France

[Mimi]

Just to say that you can watch online the programme about the french in London.

http://documentaires.france5.fr/documentaires/londres-sixieme-ville-francaise