A book which slams the French education system by a Brit.....

[woolybanana]

should go down a storm amongst France's educational elite. Trouble is that the author is probably right which makes him doubly hated by some of the ignorant, arrogant idiots who run the system and have a vested interest in it continuing as it is. I wonder if anyone will ever have the guts to shoot Napoléon however!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/05/french-schools-pupils-feel-worthless

[Quillan]

On one hand he is saying that by not reducing standards they (the French) are doing the right thing then on the other hand he is saying they are going about teaching the wrong way. Well the UK the education system has been prodded, pocked and generally used as a political football for so long with so many changes perhaps one can understand the reasoning behind not changing the French system.

[woolybanana]

It is safer not to compare the two as one can argue that the UK system has gone far too far the 'other' way, if there is such a thing. In fact so far that it no longer serves the needs of society, but those of educators, public servants and politicians. But then that is also true of the French ststem.

Having had two kids in the French system, albeit in London, I can vouch for its nasty side, which was also true of the Belgian system which, whilst claiming to be user friendly, is also nasty and demeaning to kids.

But then the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in the UK system and the constant testing and examining is also downright degrading as the results are worthless too. And what do they lead to?

[Will]

The French system needs changing - it suits the average kids, but for the more able (or less able) pupils it can be a disaster.

Strangely enough, British education minister Michael Gove was on the BBC Andrew Marr programme this morning saying that the English system (as opposed to Scottish) was too restrictive and demanded too narrow choices, too early. He was advocating a baccalaureate type system, as used in "other countries". I assume he hasn't studied France among those "other countries".

[Quillan]

I am not sure that there is a perfect education system, well I have yet to see one but then its an area I know little about other than my daughters education and my own. I think its true to say however that some are better than others and some a lot worse. Judging how good, or bad, a system or even a school is can be quite difficult. The attempts by government to set targets etc has failed terribly in the UK and I strongly believe has resulted in the 'dumbing down' of education standards over the last 15 to 20 years under both political parties.

I know my old school (Emmanuel on Clapham Common) uses the Baccalaureate system in preference to the normal GCSE and A level system. I did a quick google and it appears there are over 100 schools, both state and private, that use this system in the UK. On the UK government website I did notice one thing when I read the first page that I will share with you that sort of contradicts some of what the article says.

It's available in more than 100 schools and colleges in the UK, both state and independent, and can be taken in English, French or Spanish. It's designed to encourage you to:

• learn how to learn
• ask challenging questions
• develop a strong sense of your own identity and culture
• develop the ability to communicate with and understand people from other countries and cultures

Source.: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/QualificationsExplained/DG_10039027

[Richard51]

It has been mentioned many times before, but the fact that the UK has 15 universities in the world's top 100 compared to France's two should say everything.  Particularly, when you consider that the UK has a smaller population.

Mrs R51

[Quillan]

Yes but there is a higher level of Education that sits above Universities in France which are not included in those figures of which there are around 250. Universities in France until more recent times were often concidered the place that those who failed to get in to a Grand Ecole would go.

[Richard51]

Quillan, you seem to be saying that French post grad courses have the same status as first degrees elsewhere in the world? 

Mrs R51

[Quillan]

No, "The grandes écoles ("graduate schools", literally in French "grand schools" or "elite schools") of France are higher education establishments outside the main framework of the French university system. Unlike French public universities which have an obligation to accept all candidates of the same region who hold a baccalauréat, the selection criteria of grandes écoles rest mainly on competitive written and oral exams, usually undertaken by students from dedicated preparatory classes, although this is not always the case. They do not have a large student body (3,000 at the largest establishment; most have a few hundred students each year. While many are focused on a single subject area, such as engineering or business, others, notably the Écoles normales supérieures, may conduct teaching and research across the sciences and humanities. They have traditionally produced many if not most of France's high-ranking civil servants, politicians and executives as well as many scientists and philosophers."

To understand them better read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles

So as you can see they are not post graduate nor are they anything to do with universities yet they supply the management etc that is the core of France. There is nothing quite like it in the world although Oxbridge and Ivy League type universities get somewhere near.

[Richard51]

Interesting Quillan.  At least the French are consistent with having 'their own, non standard' qualifications for everything.  The French won't recognise the internationally recognised PADI SCUBA certification - even if you are a PADI divemaster they insist on assessing you before allowing you to dive. However, if you have the basic level French certification - no problem.  Likewise with mountaineering.  A friend of mine, who is a qualified and very experienced mountain guide and rescuer wanted to work in the French Alps.  (He has previously worked elsewhere in the world including the Himalayas without any problems).  He was told he couldn't as he didn't have a 'French' mountaineering qualification.  The case is currently being taken to the ECJ by the BMG.

Mrs R51

[Will]

Gove's reason for favouring a British Bac was primarily that it should ensure a broad education by ensuring that all pupils studied a science, a language (modern or classic) and humanities, rather than having to make narrow choices. I'm not at all sure that the French Bac is geared to breadth of knowledge.

[quote user="Quillan"]

I know my old school (Emmanuel on Clapham Common) uses the Baccalaureate system in preference to the normal GCSE and A level system.[/quote]

My grandfather was educated there. He ended up as a cab driver in Brighton (but that was, I think, very much pre-Baccalaureate)

[Hoddy]

I feel very sorry for people in the English education system. Many work very hard to get GCSEs and A levels which people then say are 'dumbed down'. What is worse, even with three As at A level some of them can't get a university place.

It seems to me that our unis have become big businesses, preferring foreign students, even to the point of offering them one year English pre-degree courses.

It seems to me that there is something wrong somewhere I just wish I could identify where.

Hoddy

[Richard51]

The universities have 'upgraded' their entry requirements following the introduction of the A* grade.  My son is hoping to go to Durham next year to study theoretical mathematics and the grades have increased from AAB to A*AA.  Nevertheless, there should be no problems getting a place with three A's. 

The real issue is the government target of 50% of all students going to university.  This has resulted in kids attending uni when it really isn't appropriate for them.  They end up getting a second rate degree in an obscure subject and flipping burgers at McD's.   I feel really sorry for these kids; promised the earth, up to their eyes in student debt...for nothing.  Some kids are practical rather than academic and they are being sold short.

Before anyone suggests I'm 'downing' on non academic kids - far from it.  When I was an accountant in practice, some of my most successful clients were those who had followed the apprenticeship route and were now running their own businesses.

Mrs R51

[woolybanana]

Yes, absolutely right. Many of these kids at Uni should be doing the old HND or equivalent. And far fewer GCSEs and A levels, say 9 and 3 respectively, in mainstream subjects with add ons in practical subjects.

[Quillan]

The fault lays, I believe, with politicians going back over the last 10 years or more. The government then wanted to reduce (or eradicate) child poverty and the numbers of young (school leavers) unemployed. To enable them to reach their targets they needed to keep kids in education longer and in theory giving them a better start in life. Just by searching on the Internet there are numerous reports (excluding the normal culprits like the DM) of the pass rate being lowered almost every year going back at least 7 or 8 years. The problem is you are not fixing the problem you are simply moving it elsewhere. Degrees are 'two a penny' now and its hard to find somebody who has not got one. Now there are fewer jobs still and more over qualified people to fill them, by that I mean graduates. This means according to some (Times, Guardian, Telegraph, Independent) that anywhere between 1 in 60 to 1 in 70 in 2010 will actually get a job depending which of those papers you read.

The Institute of Directors has been complaining for years now about the need to get better educated people in to top positions which has resulted in the government coming up with higher grades of A level for entrance in to university to the point where we are seeing things like A*AA etc which basically gives a top pass mark equivalent to what was around 10 or 15 years ago.

Talking to some friends of ours, one is a head teacher and his wife is director of education in the north and both their children are teachers, many are leaving the profession because they have become disillusioned. They want to teach but find they can't because of government bureaucracy, constant changing of goal posts and general interference which is a shame as they and I am sure there are many others are very dedicated educationists.

It is my opinion that education should be left in the hands of educationists working in hand with parents and business and not used as a political tool by past, present and future governments for their own political ends.

Will - Sending somebody to school, any school, does not make them intelligent. I believe there are a few from some of the very top private schools who have ended up in jobs you wouldn't expect. Neither is it always possible to improve their character, you only have to look at some of the politicians sent to said schools and some of the scoundrels we have seen like James Hewitt who is a typical example of the phrase 'a man without honour' but we digress. [;-)]

[Pickles]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I feel very sorry for people in the English education system. Many work very hard to get GCSEs and A levels which people then say are 'dumbed down'. What is worse, even with three As at A level some of them can't get a university place.

It seems to me that our unis have become big businesses, preferring foreign students, even to the point of offering them one year English pre-degree courses.

It seems to me that there is something wrong somewhere I just wish I could identify where.

Hoddy[/quote]

Typically, a UK university gets paid around £3K per UK/EU student, plus whatever it can charge directly. It charges upwards of £9K for non-EU students. Overall, the cost per student of teaching undergraduate degrees is generally more than the university gets paid for UK/EU students, so research income subsidises teaching. There is more to it than that, obviously, (eg what costs do you include in the cost of teaching?) but that's the basic issue. The last time I looked, the next issue was then that the universities have quotas: if you under-recruit (UK/EU) then you don't get paid for the places you don't fill, but if you over-recruit, then not only do you not get paid for the extra students that you take on, but you can even effectively be fined for doing so, so 1 extra student = 1 fee not paid and 1 fee deducted as a fine. You also have to bear in mind the physical limitations that will restrict the size of some courses (eg availability of equipment, no. of staff etc)

In terms of "dumbing down", there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

1) An old story now, but Coventry carried out tests of the mathematical abilities of its incoming science/engineering students, commencing in 1991 and posing the same set of questions to each successive cohort (one report on this can be found here). The test was used as a diagnostic to sort out where students would need support. By 2001, they were finding that students with a 2001 "A" grade at "A" level in maths could have the ability anywhere in the range from A to F in a 1991 "A" level. The place that I had links with saw a similar progression: for example, students in Management subjects were streamed for maths: in 1991 the "remedial" stream had about a quarter of the students: by 2000 there was no point in running anything other than what had been the remedial course. There are of course various factors affecting this (eg perhaps in terms of curriculum changes) but the trend was there. Some of the things that students may be "better" at than before may well be things that aren't appreciated or easily measured at university.

2) Once upon a time (OK, so it was 1960), only about 5% of 18 years olds went on to higher education: others went into jobs and vocational qualifications. By the early 1980s this had risen to 13-14%, (with the rise having taken place exclusively in the 1960s) and we had a split between Universities, Polytechnics, CHE and CFEs. Now we are well into the range 40-45%, and "we all is a university". Now, I know that when the participation rate was very low, there were significant numbers of people who were probably "clever" enough (however you wish to define it) to get into university but didn't have the opportunity, but even taking that into consideration, I don't think that we are really so many times "cleverer" now than we were a few years ago. Also bear in mind that, coming through the education system, there are

still lots of bright people who are motivated to learn - so we aren't

thicker than we used to be, either.

Fundamentally, it seems to me that universities in the UK do not really know what they are supposed to be doing: on the one hand they can be thought of (at its most cynical) as a way of keeping the youth unemployment figures down and making up for the lack of jobs by giving youth something else to do, and at the same time they are expected to "maintain standards" (whatever that means) in the face of incoming cohorts with a much wider ability range. And they are supposed to be maintaining "world class standard" research.

The above is not intended as a whinge, just an exposition of some of the issues that the sector faces.

Regards

Pickles

[Chancer]

Richard 51. Re scuba diving.

I joined a club here a year ago, despite me having more logged dives than any of the members and having done many deep dives far in excess of anything that any of them can get their heads around I have had to practice for a year to get my level one and I am now allowed to dive to a depth of 6 metres - wit woo [:-))]

I signed up for a trip to the 33m fosse in Belgium and they had kittens on the way when they realised that I didnt even have a niveau 1 let alone niveau 2 French cetrification, the trouble was that I was driving and would have turned around if they carried on flapping but it really put the fear of christ up them, not that I fully intended diving but that they would have to include me on the paperwork for the palanquer.

I told them dont worry, I will dive alone and hence wont be a part of your palanquer, then they said there is no way that they will let you in without a CMAS or FFESM card, they wont recognise your SSI qualification, for all we know you could have bought it on the internet or at a market in Thailand, foriegn qualifications are rubbish compared to French etc etc.

When we got there I pointed out that it was an accredited SSI dive centre, they had not even noticed because it was printed in English.

[Panda]

My own experiences with the french education system are generally known on here, what struck me with this the most were the statements about ailments induced by stress, my son had almost daily headaches such that he had to see a doctor and have his eyes tested on numerous occasions, he also had a recurring stomach issues for which a cause was never really found.  I also had a requirement to see a specialist and was even told to take him to see a child psychiatrist , since leaving France he has not had a single day off school for illness and has never come home with a head or stomach ache i had never really thought about this before but now it seems obvious that he was feeling the stress very heavily, he is now a happy chirpy boy who has much more confidence, I really am glad that I took him out when I did, I'm certain it works for some kids but my son is a sensitive chap and although he did well in school he obviously felt the strain.  

I do feel kids are oppressed in french school, my son is very polite and well mannered something that is often said to me but there is a price to pay for this and I think there has to be some middle ground between the UK and french systems,perhaps Sweden is the answer, I hear only good things about schooling there..

 

[Will]

It seems that although the Swedish system could almost have been set up by David Cameron, and most of the population seems to like it, there are concerns about falling standards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8496764.stm

[thepenofmyaunt]

It's available in more than 100 schools and colleges in the UK, both state and independent

Over 100 schools is not actually that many. The International Baccalaureate has been categorically rejected by many of the top UK education establishments. The French Baccalaureate has absolutely nothing in common with the International baccalaureate. They are two totally different things and France does not actually recognise it.

 

But then the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in the UK system and the constant testing and examining is also downright degrading as the results are worthless too

Complete rubbish!  My children were tested far more in France that they are in the UK. You really shouldn't believe everything you read in the media.  For decades the same complaint has been levelled at just about every education system in the world, including France.  I think the emphasis in some subjects has shifted but does that make them 'dumbed down to the lowest common denominator'? I don't think so and I'm experiencing the UK education system first hand.

 

Yes but there is a higher level of Education that sits above Universities in France which are not included in those figures of which there are around 250. Universities in France until more recent times were often concidered the place that those who failed to get in to a Grand Ecole would go.

Many of the Grandes Ecoles are included in the University rankings. ENS in Paris comes in top in France at 33. Cambridge, on the other hand, comes in first.  It should be noted that there are a number of different university rankings but France has only 3 Grandes Ecoles in the top 200.

 

 

 

[NormanH]

[quote user="thepenofmyaunt"]

It's available in more than 100 schools and colleges in the UK, both state and independent

Over 100 schools is not actually that many. The International Baccalaureate has been categorically rejected by many of the top UK education establishments. The French Baccalaureate has absolutely nothing in common with the International baccalaureate. They are two totally different things and France does not actually recognise it.

Who judges 'the top'?

There is an International  option in the French bac taken by schools such as the Lycée International de St Germain en laye

 

But then the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in the UK system and the constant testing and examining is also downright degrading as the results are worthless too

Complete rubbish!  My children were tested far more in France that they are in the UK. You really shouldn't believe everything you read in the media.  For decades the same complaint has been levelled at just about every education system in the world, including France.  I think the emphasis in some subjects has shifted but does that make them 'dumbed down to the lowest common denominator'? I don't think so and I'm experiencing the UK education system first hand.

I thought it was your children who were at school, but if you have finally decided to get an education, best of luck.

 

Yes but there is a higher level of Education that sits above Universities in France which are not included in those figures of which there are around 250. Universities in France until more recent times were often concidered the place that those who failed to get in to a Grand Ecole would go.

Many of the Grandes Ecoles are included in the University rankings. ENS in Paris comes in top in France at 33. Cambridge, on the other hand, comes in first.  It should be noted that there are a number of different university rankings but France has only 3 Grandes Ecoles in the top 200.

Is that the same as all?

The appalling treason visited on British children in the last 50 years by governments of various hues has lead to a system which mimics learning, but promotes contempt for it.

I worked in Somerset for 13 years and despaired at the  oafish yokel lumpish ignorance of the teachers, (who would say 'Oh Ar' for yes ) and confused Rimbaud with Rimbo.

Learning, knowledge, intellectual honesty, reasoning thought and discussion have gone out of the window, and copying coursework from the Internet  ( with pretend  'sophisticated '  topics, to which the parents can ohh and ah saying 'I could never have done that' ) has come in.

At least French children are expected to know  something

 

 

 

[/quote]

[Chancer]

As the product of a leftie, trendy, progressive education of the 60's and early 70's, as someone who went to a school with 2000+ pupils where the teachers smoked dope in front of the class and did not even know each other, a school known in the press as the trainig gorund for borstal, as someone who got several unclassifieds at O level including French when we were actually allowed to fail an exam and carry the U mark for life....................

 I have no idea what either Rimbaud or Rimbo is.

Rambo is about my limit [;-)]

[pachapapa]

Anecdote.

Eric was once aked who was his favourite writer. He replied Rimbaud. The journalists reported his rambo proclivity.[:)]

And someone asked me who Rimbo was....

[Clarkkent]

 

The appalling treason visited on British children in the last 50 years by governments of various hues has lead to a system which mimics learning, but promotes contempt for it.

I worked in Somerset for 13 years and despaired at the  oafish yokel lumpish ignorance of the teachers, (who would say 'Oh Ar' for yes ) and confused Rimbaud with Rimbo.

Learning, knowledge, intellectual honesty, reasoning thought and discussion have gone out of the window, and copying coursework from the Internet  ( with pretend  'sophisticated '  topics, to which the parents can ohh and ah saying 'I could never have done that' ) has come in.

At least French children are expected to know  something

This post - and this thread - has made me think of two recent BBC items/programmes:

The first is a recent item in From our own Correspondent - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8868935.stm

Here we have a parent talking about his own child's experiences in the French education system. The word "education" comes from the Latin educare: to lead out. This account describes a process that leads nowhere but to the force feeding shed. Knowledge, by itself, does nothing. It is the application, the manipulation, the development of knowledge that will make it useful, not its retention.

The second was John Humphries' programme on BBC2 last night. He was looking at the results of social division on educational experience. But what came through - bright and shining - was that proactive, engaged, imaginative and commited head teachers can transform a child's prospects and opportunities. From what I have learned about the French education system (from friends with children in France, from discussions on this forum, from other sources) the opportunity and motivation for French head teachers to experiment, to innovate, just does not exist.

It would appear that it is the French education system, not the British, which treats children with contempt.

 

[NormanH]

Yet which country produces the more innovative engineers (I think of the TGV in comparison with the HST,) or better medical/Pharmaceutical research.

There has to be a basis of acquired knowledge before it can be manipulated.

The Big Lie ( as opposed to Big Society) in British Education comes from imagining that children have to be entertained., and their parents amused.