Burka ban passed

[Clair]

The law comes into effect on 11th April 2011.

[quote]La loi du 11 octobre 2010 interdit le port de tenues destinées à

dissimuler le visage dans l’espace public (voies publiques ainsi que

lieux ouverts au public ou affectés à un service public). Les personnes

contrevenantes sont passibles d’une amende d’un montant maximum de

150 euros, mais il peut s’y substituer ou s’y ajouter une obligation

d’accomplir un stage de citoyenneté.

The Law of October 11, 2010 bans wearing clothing which hides the face in public spaces (public roads and public places or assigned to a public service). The offenders can be fined a maximum of 150€ and an obligation to attend a citizenship course can be substituted or added to this fine. [/quote]

A website is available with a brief Q&A: http://www.visage-decouvert.gouv.fr/questions-reponses.html (google translation HERE)

[Bugsy]

What really good news and long overdue.

People can spout all they like about the whys and wherefores on this subject but very few talk about the real issue with this.

The actual fact that everyday life in western civilisation is based on face to face contact. It really is as simple as that.

A laugh:

I pulled into a filling station in England last year and was asked to remove my helmet before filling up. [Www][:@]

.

[Gardengirl]

I don't recall anyone having a face covering in our area in France, although there are many wearing head coverings. Where we live in UK, a fairly affluent place not far from a university and close to a large shopping 'mall', we often see people wearing total face coverings, with a non-see through veil. I've travelled in many countries with very devout Moslem women, but haven't come across as many as I see popping to the local Asda etc. It makes me feel very uncomfortable not to be able to see peoples' faces.

[Clair]

[quote user="gardengirl "]I don't recall anyone having a face covering in our area in France ...[/quote]

Same here in our rural area, and you're unlikely to see any unless you happen to visit a cité HLM surrounding most large towns, where most North-Africans immigrants were herded back in the 60's.

When coming to Paris from the UK, I used to stay with friends in a flat near the Porte d'Italie and my friends and I used to debate at length about choice and religious tolerance.

My hackles used to rise when seeing a covered face at the thought of what I perceived then as a form of coercion caused by a narrow and deliberately manipulative interpretation of a religious work.

Twenty-odd years on, my views on this matter haven't changed.

There was a very interesting discussion on BBC News this morning about this very topic and the two women present with opposing views came together on the very good point that there must be choice.

This law takes away the choice, but has there ever been any for the majority?

[fisherman]

With my hearing not being quite 20/20 I doubt if I could fully understand somebody with a covered face.

[Gardengirl]

I didn't say in my post, but in our small town there are large numbers of North Africans, and there are HLMs just across the road from us, and along other roads nearby. Maybe they are the wrong sort of north Africans! I see many women shopping in the market etc with only  their heads covered; a lot of the men gather at one particular cafe or on the esplanade benches. That is common, unlike seeing women with full head coverings near my home in UK; there's a large ASDA at the shopping mall, where people come to shop from quite a large area.

[Quillan]

I think they should ban the wearing of Kilts in England. [:)]

This a difference I believe between France and the UK when it comes to immigrants from former colonies. The French assimilated their colonies in to France where as the English didn't. French colonies spoke French as the prime language as we can see with the now ex colonies like in Africa and North Africa on holiday etc. English colonies kept their own primary language and had English as their second language. Many of the immigrants from ex French colonies see themselves as French even before they arrive in France. Indeed for some immigration is thought of as coming home to the mother country.

So taking this in to context one could argue that immigrants coming to the UK even from the ex colonies are foreign and therefore should abide by English standards (dress, language etc) but with immigrants going to France from their ex French colonies they were French all along therefore their dress was acceptable (in their minds). An example of this is that even if you see two Arabic people in your French supermarket queue chatting together they do so, most of the time, in French. What I do notice, and whilst we don't have that many, those that have come to my local town be they Vietnamese, Arab or whatever they, and in particular the younger ones, want to 'blend in' with the locals as opposed to making a 'statement' about their ethnicity. In the UK I feel that because we have not made a better effort especially with the younger people to help them integrate etc they feel 'lost' and turn make to their ethnic roots if you get my drift. Basically they are not made to feel English/British etc and they know what their parents are and where they came from so they turn to the ethnic background of their parents who may be second or third generation themselves and got treated the same way. Basically if your lost you go back to the safety of what you know. What the UK in particular should have done is to put a much lower and tougher restriction on immigration and the money saved used in better ways to assimilate the immigrants by way of better education etc.

On to the Burka, which leads on from how the French dealt with their colonies and their peoples and that the majority do want to assimilate I have seen very few (and in particular) Arabic women wearing Burka's. In fact I would say, and I do visit places like Toulouse, that in ten years I could count the amount of times I have seen worn in France as being less than ten. I do see women wearing head scarves and I have seen a few, but not many, Arab men wearing a 'dress' (I don't mean to be rude but I don't know it's name and actually it's probably a lot more comfortable in the summer down here).

The other thing is of course politics and how Sarkozy plays to both the left and the right. As Clair (and I) have pointed out this is NOT a direct burka ban, it is a ban on wearing something that obscures your face. Europeans, for example, will have to take off their crash helmets, if they ride a bike, every time they stop for a 'reasonable' time and definitely if they get off the bike. Those that wear balaclavas on ski slops will be told to remove them. It will also give the gendarmes and the police the right to arrest anyone at a demonstration irregardless of if they are doing anything wrong if they have obscured their face. It is this last reason that I believe has driven Sarkozy to instigate this law especially with regards to his past problems with demonstrators. So to the 'Left' Sarkozy tells them it's not about immigrants and to the 'Right' he tells them it is about immigrants.

In some ways it makes me laugh, I wonder what these right wing supporters in France would make of a visit to the UK. They would probably get so excited that they would wizz round at a million miles an hour and go bang.

[ericd]

[quote user="Théière"]

It amazes me how tolerant some countries are of our western ways when we travel to their countries

[/quote]

And where is that Theiere???...Although your post is quite old.....

Been to Saudi a few times and wanted to have dinner with Saudi friends (a couple with their young kids). Before they arrive, I chose a nice spot in the restaurant where we would be able to relax and enjoy the food. When they arrived, they told me that my chosen spot would not be acceptable as it was Tuesday and such places are reserved for single men on Tuesdays....

Been to Israel a few times and once took my wife to the gardens of Gethsemane just above the old town in Jerusalem. I had my shorts on as it was very hot. I was refused entrance of the gardens as I was showing my legs (and apparently disrespect....but it's my own religion !!!) and had after much arguing to run back to the hotel to wear long trousers. What if it had been a bunch of Boy Scouts on a daily trip?

Been to the the largest Jewish Synagogue in Budapest, and had to wear my paper hat.

Been to The Vatican (that's in Rome) and was amazed to see "tourists" wearing caps whilst being unchallenged inside the Basilica. Same happened in Notre Dame de Paris.

Been to The Blue Mosque in Istanbul...had to take my shoes off.

So where is the tolerance for Western ways abroad coming from? 

[woolybanana]

Does this mean that nuns will have to remove their wimples?

[Quillan]

Actual Wooly thats a very good point especially given Frances attitude to religion and the state. Having said that we have a home for "distressed young women" (I have been trying to get in there for years [:(] ) and thats run by nuns but I have never noticed them wearing their 'wimples', perhaps they don't in France, I can't say as I noticed. I see where you are coming from, one hat fits all, or not as the case may be.

[ericd]

[quote user="Quillan"]and thats run by nuns but I have never noticed them wearing their 'wimples', perhaps they don't in France, I can't say as I noticed. I see where you are coming from, one hat fits all, or not as the case may be.[/quote]

 

....Different types of nunneries different dress codes. And Nuns wearing the habit do not cover their faces ! They only cover their heads and wear a veil as a headdress, their eyes, mouth and nose are all open for all to see.

[Clair]

One woman who will most probably be in the news this coming week:

'Burqa ban' in France: housewife vows to face jail rather than submit

[idun]

For me, what difference, if she does. I hate everything she is fighting for, hate it. I always say that people should fight for their beliefs and I still believe that, but, that could be 'any' cause and I don't have to agree or like their cause.

This woman by her submission to something that does not even instruct her to do in her 'bible' only encourages the fundamentalist muslim looneys and their quest to take over the planet.   The first to be assimilated into their view of the world, would be us, the women.

Not an anti muslim rant, I hate the fundamentalists of any relgions whether  christians or muslims or any other religion.

[mint]

How right you are, idun!

Last week, I saw a programme with Louis Theroux in the the US where he spent time with a Christian fundamentalist group who frightened the hell out of me.  For a start, they believe that Obama is the Anti-Christ and anyone within the family disagreeing with them should be well and truly ostracized.

Then, the next evening or so, I saw a programme called "My brother the Islamist" which was based in Weymouth and London about a chap with a brother (white family) who became a radical Islamist.  These Islamists also believe that, if anyone is not of their conviction, they should be totally cut off  from their lives and consigned to the heap of the UNCLEAN.

Can you see any parallels?

Both programmes were equally terrifying to me and I said to OH, why don't they put the 2 groups together and let them do what they will to each other and let the rest of us live in peace?

[woolybanana]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Then, the next evening or so, I saw a programme called "My brother the Islamist" which was based in Weymouth and London about a chap with a brother (white family) who became a radical Islamist.  These Islamists also believe that, if anyone is not of their conviction, they should be totally cut off  from their lives and consigned to the heap of the UNCLEAN.

[/quote]

Which is contrary to the teaching of Islam

[mint]

But, Wools, don't you see, that's the whole point?

Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist islamists, fundamentalist anything, they are the ones you need to worry about?

It's this literal and basic belief in the bible, the quoran, the torah, the whatever that is so immutable and so EXclusive and so frightening?

No room for differences of opinion, no room for discussion, no room for diversity.............what kind of a world would that be?

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Everybody has the right to believe what they want. But as soon as they start putting their beliefs on others, then the problems start.

That's what I believe and so should you too.

;)

[mint]

Belief is one thing but Belief translated into Action.....that's quite another!

That's the thing about Belief...it informs your Action and that leads to Results and that's when I just wish all fundamentalists would go and confront each other but not Me because I just want to be Left Alone.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Agreed sweet.

The totally crazy thing is they are all fighting and murdering each other over something that probably doesn't exist anyway.

If you want to fight for something, fight for something you can actually see and prove exists.

[g8vkv]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Last week, I saw a programme with Louis Theroux in the the US where he spent time with a Christian fundamentalist group who frightened the hell out of me.  For a start, they believe that Obama is the Anti-Christ and anyone within the family disagreeing with them should be well and truly ostracized.

[/quote]

That would be the Westboro Baptist Church, led by the notorious Fred Phelps and his daughter Shirley. Their speciality is to picket the funerals of US soldiers, waving placards saying things like "Pray for more dead soldiers" and "God killed your son" and similar delightful sentiments. Their aim appears to be to provoke attacks and then sue, claiming the First Amendment. They have had some success in this money-making scheme.

They have a number of websites (godhatestheworld.com, godhatesfags.com, etc.), which have recently been shut down by attacks (allegedly)  from anonymous.org  (motto : We are Anonymous. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us).

TBH, I think they are more mentally deranged than actually dangerous.

[idun]

I have looked at the bible and koran and they don't appear to be other than books with very basic and often decent teachings in them from a very long time ago when the world was quite a different place and written for their times and not mine, here and now.

How they are even looked at today escapes me completely, never mind fundamentalists corrupting the original message. Although, [:D] the web site 'godhatestheworld', well that has amused me, because I am starting to think that IF there is a god then that is exactly what they must feel about this planet. I cannot see how a being worth worshipping who has power never ending, could let so many of this planets creatures suffer so. And my friends who believe tell me that, 'we' are supposed to sort it all out ourselves and I haven't understood, and that is right,I haven't. 

 

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Belief is one thing but Belief translated into Action.....that's quite another!

That's the thing about Belief...it informs your Action and that leads to Results and that's when I just wish all fundamentalists would go and confront each other but not Me because I just want to be Left Alone.

[/quote]

Let's start with blasphemy ... let's get it banned as a concept. One of the most positive things the European Parliament could do is to outlaw the concept throughout the EU - European citizens should be given the protection to believe whatever they like, but that protection should not extend to the beliefs themselves.

Religion should be treated as a personal matter of no concern to the state providing that religion does not impact on any other individual. This would, of course, affect the existence of faith schools. Such places should not be tolerated and should be considered as places of propaganda. Parents may provide an example through their own beliefs but not be allowed to impose them on their children.

The literary foundation of the Abrahamic religions is a collection of the myths, legends and fairy tales of a load of Bronze Age arabic goat herders living at the eastern end of the Mediterranean basin. Some of these legends, eg the Flood, are conflations of folk stories from elsewhere - in the case of the Flood, from the Epic of Gilgamesh. A real current danger is the insistence of some fundament Christian groups that the biblical story of creation should be taught as fact in science classes alongside the theory of evolution. In this case it is their refusal to accept that "theory" has a specific meaning in science that is the problem. It is not the way the word is used in everyday speech ("Evolution is only a theory" -  but then so is gravity!)

 

Sorry - rant over.

EDIT  Did anyone see Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou's series on BBC4 - The Bible's Buried Secrets?

 

[idun]

Saw a bit of the series, and will look out for it as it is sure to be on again. Very very interesting.

[mint]

[quote user="g8vkv"]
That would be the Westboro Baptist Church, led by the notorious Fred Phelps and his daughter Shirley. Their speciality is to picket the funerals of US soldiers, waving placards saying things like "Pray for more dead soldiers" and "God killed your son" and similar delightful sentiments. Their aim appears to be to provoke attacks and then sue, claiming the First Amendment. They have had some success in this money-making scheme.

They have a number of websites (godhatestheworld.com, godhatesfags.com, etc.), which have recently been shut down by attacks (allegedly)  from anonymous.org  (motto : We are Anonymous. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us).

TBH, I think they are more mentally deranged than actually dangerous.
[/quote]

Thank you.  I didn't quite get the name as I switched on about midway through.  Mentally deranged?  Certainly.  But I think they would be dangerous, given half a chance!

As for the islamist thing, they are both deranged and dangerous.  I mean, Weymouth?  Such an innocuous, pleasant seaside town and there are these people raised in its midst!

For me, they are the scarier of the two, if only because I know next to nothing about the US but quite a lot about the UK.

[g8vkv]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Thank you.  I didn't quite get the name as I switched on about midway through.  Mentally deranged?  Certainly.  But I think they would be dangerous, given half a chance!

As for the islamist thing, they are both deranged and dangerous.  I mean, Weymouth?  Such an innocuous, pleasant seaside town and there are these people raised in its midst!

For me, they are the scarier of the two, if only because I know next to nothing about the US but quite a lot about the UK.

[/quote]

You could be right. It's a bit worrying that a significant percentage of the US population believes in "The Rapture", i.e. judgment followed by the end of the world  (the former now about to happen at the end of May 2011, with the end of the world in October).

If Ms. Palin ever gets her finger on the button, we could all get pretty worried.

Don't get me started on Islamist crackpots.

Some therapy for all this lunacy here