Significant Notaire mistake: Who is liable?

[hacker]

Hello all

need some forum advice pls.

We have just bought in France. Let's assume we signed the CDV for a total price of 100K. Paid 10% deposit - no problems. Prior to closure, the vendor's notaire asks our notaire for 80K (not 90K). We query this and are told no - its all correct, they have saved some tax due to fitted kitchens etc. Naturally we are delighted. We wire the 80k and our notaire confirms the vendor's notaire has received it. We arrive for the final signing, both notaires, vendors, auctioneer and ourselves are present. Docs all signed, vendors get cheque, we get keys- all leave happy. We move into the house and some weeks later get a 4-line email from our notaire saying that the vendor's notaire has made a mistake and now needs 12K (not the apprx 10K we reckoned).  At this stage the money has been spent on house and we will have a problem trying to find this cash. My view is the notaires both screwed this up and they should be liable.

Anyone have prior experience/knoweledge/advise on this point?

regards...

[BJSLIV]

What were the purchase amounts in the documents you signed?

[hacker]

Hello

The purchase amount on the CDV we signed was 100K. This was the total amount inc frais d'acte, hon de negotiation etc.

We paid a 10% deposit (10K).

We then paid the requested balance of 80K, which, in reply to our queries, they assured us was correct.

The document (attestation) signed in the notaires office at the closing of the sale, was for the base house price as agreed in the CDV, ie not including frais d'acte or hon de negotiation. I suspect he only found the shortfall when he went to pay the auctioneer and taxes.

regards..

[Viv]

I can understand your annoyance but I think unless you have got anything in writing from the Notaire to say that the amount you paid was the full and final amount for everything, I think you will have to cough up.

Certainly I would be livid with the Notaire, but from the info you have given it appears that you knew that the amount you were going to have to pay was 100k . I appreciate that you queried this and if you have copies of letters , emails etc , it may get you somewhere but I doubt it.

They will probably just say something along the lines that you paid for the house, now you need to pay the fees etc that you knew you had to pay and if you misunderstood us, then its probably down to your language skills ! ( This isn't intended as a slur on you, but what we were told when we got financially stitched up by a builder!)

 

 

[hacker]

I think you're right - we'll eventually have to pay. Still, a formal complaint to the regional chambre of the notaires may force him to clean up his act (I'll feel better if nothing else!)- it also took him months to issue a receipt for our deposit.

 

regards..

[Wendy]

Tell them you can only pay in installments. Drag it out. Its their fault not yours. Make 'em wait.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="wen"]Tell them you can only pay in installments. Drag it out. Its their fault not yours. Make 'em wait.[/quote]

You wish! I doubt if trying to assign blame to a functionary will achieve much! As far as I can tell, with the info above, the OP will have to pay and fairly soon, becuase the money is overdue - the OP has not disputed the amount (& it is written on his Acte).

Problems with the Notaire are a seperate issue. Extra charges or interest may be recoverable - but it could be years. remember that, in France as in the UK, you can't sue the state.

 

[Anton Redman]

Sue the state  - I do not think you can even take out a writ of Mandamis, or whatever it is called  in France

[Angie]

Slightly different situation for us.  Can anyone advise; if the Maire has made a significant mistake on the CU and permis de construire and signed and passed the documents can he be held liable?  His mistake will cost us in excess of 10,000 euros to put right.despite us checking and double checking, he allowed us to go ahead with the work. 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="bevvy"]Slightly different situation for us.  Can anyone advise; if the Maire has made a significant mistake on the CU and permis de construire and signed and passed the documents can he be held liable?  His mistake will cost us in excess of 10,000 euros to put right.despite us checking and double checking, he allowed us to go ahead with the work. [/quote]

Are you confusing liability and compensation? Liability is often easy to establish, compensation rarely is!

I think we need a bit more information. What mistake that the Mairie made could cost you 10K€? And if you want legal opinion, you really should ask an Avocat.

[BJSLIV]

Who is saying that you have to change that which the permission allows you to do. You cannot change your plans without seeking further permission.

If the mayor , more probably the DDE, has approved what you requested , then surely its your own responsibility, if what was proposed needs to be changed.

[Angie]

Thanks all for your replies; although I have posted this previously things have since moved on, so will attempt to explain our predicament. 

 

We purchased our plot of land some 2 years ago, obtained the CU with much aggravation after 1 year and then the permis last September. 

 

When we purchased the plot we were told that all services (branchements) had to be connected to the property in the middle of our land (fine with us).  However, on the CU and permis, the Mairie and DDT changed the access to the edge of our plot so it came onto our property between 2 houses.  Before starting, our (French) builder went back to the Mairie's office to check that this small piece of land of 8 metres (which he had to cross) did not belong to anyone - he said "no".  However, just to check, our builder spoke to the neighbours who confirmed what the Mairie had said, that it was communal land and they did not have a problem with the proposed work.  We have had to pay almost 20,000 euros to have a seweage system/water/electric/phone connected to our site (and also have paid nearly 1,000 additional euros to the commune for the privilege). The work was completed about a month ago.

 

However, now it is all complete, we have been informed by our builder that both these neighbours now want financial compensation as our branchements cross their land - in the sum of 5,000 euros each - but to add insult to injury we have now discovered that at least one of these people is related to the Mairie (we think it is his brother in law).  Our builder has tackled the Mairie about this and his comment was "it wasn't his responsibilty".  To his credit, our builder has insisted we do not pay money to these people however, after looking at the property again, and because he has to move the pipework almost 80 metres along the lane, our builder will have to charge us an additional 10,000 euros to do this.

 

As for the difference between liability and compensation, why should we be out of pocket especially as we did everything "by the book".  Knowing our luck once we have carried out this additional work we will be penalised for not complying with the CU and permis and asked to move it back to its original location!  Shall I write to the DDT who, I have to say, have been very helpful to us in the past.

[Chezstevens]

As with all work in France - write a letter requesting written confirmation before the work. A registered letter to both neighbours and the Mairie would have solved this. Unfortunately a lot of Brits consider that a nod and a wink is sufficient. It is not in the UK so why should it be different in France. There are ransom strips in the UK - would you cross land without written confirmation? Sadly too late for yourselves but a timely warning to others.

[Angie]

Does this mean we have to ask for "written confirmation" about everything contained in the Permis?  What on earth is the point of negotiating all the red tape, speaking to the Mairie direct, the planning office and the neighbours only to find that they are all "in it for themselves".  If so, the permis is worthless.  As for sending registered letters, we have done this, and surprise, surprise some 5 months later still no reply.  We even put letters through the front doors of the neighbours concerned in May but again, nothing.  The only written confirmation we seem to have success is obtaining from our Mairie is yet another invoice.

 

I am coming to the conclusion that what everyone told us about the French is correct that they are underhand, lazy, workshy and corrupt.  Apart from the Notaire, who has been genuine, helpful and very professional, everyone we have dealt with from start to finish has had their hand out and "no" it is not the same in the UK; we have built 2 houses in the past 10 years and have not experienced anything like this in England.

 

Our local French bank manager told us that the area is suffering from severe economic problems due to the closure of 3 very large employers and are "welcoming" foreigners with open arms; focussing on tourism and development.  Well, I for one, hope they get what they deserve - judging by the treatment we have received. 

[Angie]

ALSO, our builder is French and has worked in and around our village for 30 years - if he trusted a "nod and a wink" then why shouldn't we?  Probably because we are English and they thought they could take advantage of us, which they most certainly have.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="bevvy"]

Does this mean we have to ask for "written confirmation" about everything contained in the Permis?  What on earth is the point of negotiating all the red tape, speaking to the Mairie direct, the planning office and the neighbours only to find that they are all "in it for themselves".  If so, the permis is worthless.  As for sending registered letters, we have done this, and surprise, surprise some 5 months later still no reply.  We even put letters through the front doors of the neighbours concerned in May but again, nothing.  The only written confirmation we seem to have success is obtaining from our Mairie is yet another invoice.

 

I am coming to the conclusion that what everyone told us about the French is correct that they are underhand, lazy, workshy and corrupt.  Apart from the Notaire, who has been genuine, helpful and very professional, everyone we have dealt with from start to finish has had their hand out and "no" it is not the same in the UK; we have built 2 houses in the past 10 years and have not experienced anything like this in England.

 

Our local French bank manager told us that the area is suffering from severe economic problems due to the closure of 3 very large employers and are "welcoming" foreigners with open arms; focussing on tourism and development.  Well, I for one, hope they get what they deserve - judging by the treatment we have received. 

[/quote]

Yes, essentially. If nothing else, 4 years of developing in France has taught me to get it in writing.

If everyone (who ever they are) told you that about the French, why did you go ahead? This is not my experience. There is nothing you can do about nepotism, the French population is (or rather, has not been) as mobile as the UK, so in small communes everyone is bound to be related!

As to your way forward, I would ignore your neighbours - or rather politely refuse them. Let hem take the lead. If they did not ask for compensation before you started. they probably wouldn't get it anyway.

 

 

 

[billy10]

Hi Hacker

                  My experience of notaires in France are that they are almost untouchable and generally they are correct and absolute right down the line, for instance when I purchased a house in France some two years ago I paid all my fees, etc etc and we all walked away happy, two months later I had a cheque from my Notaire for 1500 Euros as he explained that expenses were not as much as calculated originally. I f a genuine mistake has been made by your Notaires I think you will find that there is not much you can do about it , the onus is on you to query any amount you pay particularly if the amount is less than you agreed.Sorry to be a party pooper but if you agree to pay x amount , then that is what you will end up paying

[Will]

Billy10 - that's not a mistake, that is the norm. Notaires, and their calculations, will always err on the high side, as it is far easier to return money than to get more out of an (often absentee) owner. I bet the vast majority of people here with a house in France have had such a refund. One could ask what happens to the interest on the overpayment?

You are right that notaires are almost untouchable. Most are straight, but some do get up to dodgy dealings, and when the excrement hits the ventilator then unfortunately other notaires will rally behind them, rather than weed out the bad ones. Yes, notaires do get struck off, but the only time I have heard of this happening is for alleged sexual misconduct rather than dodgy deals.

[Miki]

Quite right Will, any house or appartemnt we have ever bought, has

always meant a cheque for the "overs" being sent at a later date. Never

for that much though, that is pretty high. We all know the 3 types of

Notaires, do we not[;-)]

[Evie]

Hi Billy 10

I have been reading forum messages for some time but only now needed to join in and ask advice.

When contacting the Notaire recently over another issue we were told that he owes us 317 euros from our house purchase in 1999! As we didn't know money was due we never queried it. Can Notaires hold on to your money like this? 

Cheers

Evie

[Evianers]

Notaires are certainly not infallible. We paid too much tax - very complicated and involved. It took 2.5 years to get the money back [without interest of course]. Only because OH is very much on the ball where finances are concerned was the mistake picked up a while after all transfer fees had been paid. Our advice, check, recheck and check again.

[fulcrum]

[quote user="Evie"]

Hi Billy 10

I have been reading forum messages for some time but only now needed to join in and ask advice.

When contacting the Notaire recently over another issue we were told that he owes us 317 euros from our house purchase in 1999! As we didn't know money was due we never queried it. Can Notaires hold on to your money like this? 

Cheers

Evie

[/quote]

I was advised by our French agent on our first house purchase many years ago that we should ask the notaire with a letter to the effect of "Is there any money left over from our purchase funds?" We did this and the notaire sent us a cheque for about €300. So it always pays to ask.

[billy10]

Hi Evie

The answer in short is yes they can , provided when the overpayment is recognised they eventually pay you back,eventually in France of course means "whenever". As I said previously Notaires are practically untouchable , however in the main honest and straight down the line,you have to put it down to experience 

Regards

Billly10,