Starting a business in England v France

[MOZMAN]

IDUN, Thanks for this. I think whilst working with my business in UK I am hoping to have more visits to France than an employer would allow. Perhaps 15 - 20 weeks a year based on about 10 visits.  Eventually it would be nice if this increases.  When retirement looms then I think it more likely the decision of tax residence, tax payable and of course most importantly where you want to live that comes to the fore.

Regarding artidans.  I agree they have large social charges and as such have to pass these on.  The economy os tight now and many people will - put off work, do it them selves or use the black economy.  None of these aspects actually puts money to the taxman, so instead of growing the pie he just taxes those that will pay, and are easy to tax, more.  This puts even more pressure to keep salaaries down as business needs to maintain profit.  Therefore it the individual who is squeezed as alaways.

Goes back to some of my points about why Hollande does not want small businesses to start.  He wants people working in the state owned monopolies or public sector where it is so easy to keep an eye on them and define tax and social charges and take them.   This will not achieve any growth, yet Hollande keeps on about wanting this!!!!

[MOZMAN]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]I agree with Quillan, it is a mindset issue. I believe French kids have lessons at school about society and their duties as a citizen, too extreme maybe, whereas maybe a little more of that in the UK rather than all 'me me me' might not be a bad thing. I also think the OPs references to the Revolution are relevant though perhaps not in the way he thinks - 1800 is really not that long ago in the history of a country, the UK has only got through half a dozen or so monarchs since then, and I do get the feeling that that it is recent enough for the French to still be proud that their ancestors fought for today's democracy and they are unwilling to throw it out as no longer fit for purpose. They are certainly not going to start another revolution but maybe they should move on from the last one.

But for all that, when you look at the huge difference in the French and UK mindsets when it comes to business, I don't see a corresponding huge difference in their respective economies - they're both in the sticky stuff.[/quote]

My Wife was a teacher in the UK and I agree that our kids do not learn enough about society and the general the values of respect and contribution. I suppose it is about balance and children realising a degree of social responsibility but that they are also individuals and not part of a state machine.  In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.  I prefer the later term and accept that in essence the French Revolution created the distinction.  This is all fine but we nust still come back to the fiscal aspects of all this.  The State has become to big and expensive, it does not produce.  The French need to balance the sound ideals of citizenship with sound economics.  I agree it is about evolving from 1800 and embracing some change.  The model is increasingly unaffordable.

I have noticed in the 11 years that we have lived near Orbec in Normandy and that the town has declined.  Indeed recently at a rapid rate.  The town is in huge debt and has no significant growth plans to trade out of this.  Therefore they will have to cut budgets, so it will get worse for the citizens.  When we purchased our house in France we felt that Orbec was more vibrant than Cheadle, Staffs - which is a larger market town.  This has totally reversed with Cheadle improving, despite the current recession and Orbec in continuing decline.  We recently met a local French journalist in Orbec who bemoaned the loss of 300 jobs and the increasing unemployment and social and financial difficulties that brings.  Indeed the attempted burglary at our house is a sign of this.  Also another person in the town that I can not name said just how badly the town was fairing and how it had declined.  That person was considering leaving France and emigrating for better opportunities.

I agree that the French and UK economies are struggling.  Lets face it this was because of banks being greedy, an over inflated property market that relied on people feeling good about house values and governments who kept borrowing against unsustainable growth.  The UK is struggling to get going, hence why they are trying to encourage small businesses with sensible tax regimes and rules. The French are not doing this so I would value any enlightenment as to how the French are going to get out of it.  Subsidies are illegal and not the answer.

Much of the big picture is above our heads.  But simply you can only really be happy if you are living in the environment you want in relative comfort.  Also some certainty that your hard earned money is not going to be grabbed.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="idun"]Mozman, remember that unless you are retired, then you could lose your right to NHS hospital care if you are out of the UK for more than 90 days a year. I realise that GP's remain available, but last time I was at hospital there was a notice up about this.

I agree about it being hard to run a business in France. Artisans for example are hit hard, and when I questioned their prices when I first moved to France, was, to my surprise, told how much they had to pay in social charges. Same for the big employers too, their costs are enormous, no wonder salaries remain so low.

[/quote]

Even if he is running a business in the UK, paying his taxes etc then surely he would still have the right to remain in the NHS considering he's paying for it? I don't know the rules on this, but that would be nuts if he wasn't allowed to remain in it.

[Quillan]

Quite right CDL. Mrs 'Q' is employed by the UK government and as such is obliged to pay tax and NI in the UK regardless of if she lives there are not. The same will happen when I draw my RAF pension as it is classed as a government pension. Great for us in France as we pay no tax etc on her UK salary but there is a negative point, we couldn't join the French system. To get round this we started our B&B on which we pay our tax and social contributions which allows us total access to the French system.

[powerdesal]

MOZMAN wrote:-

''In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.''

My UK passport refers to me as a ''British Citizen''

[AnOther]

[quote user="idun"]Mozman, remember that unless you are retired, then you could lose your right to NHS hospital care if you are out of the UK for more than 90 days a year.[/quote]It's far from that simple !

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074374

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"]MOZMAN wrote:- ''In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.'' My UK passport refers to me as a ''British Citizen''[/quote]

Yes but your EU first and UK second which incidentally made me think that this will be another nice little earner for the government if the UK left the EU. Whats a new passport cost these days because seeing as it is an EU passport first we would all need new UK only passports (bit like if Scotland leave the union). I bet a few people would have a right old whinge when they discover they have to replace theirs. It's all the little things, many have EU driving licences, they would have to be changed. Sorry but it just came in to my head as I was typing.

[Sprogster]

With HMRC increasingly making it as difficult as possible for a British Citizen to become non UK tax resident, it is highly unlikely that the NHS would take the contradictory position that you were not entitled to care just because you spent more than 90 days outside the UK, which plenty of people do through the course of their employment. Aircraft and ship crews for example.

The fact is that if the UK is your main home, where your family is based and you pay your UK taxes and NI contributions, you are not going to have some faceless civil servant spending thousands of pounds in man hours tracking your every move to try and establish if you are entitled to use the NHS! 

Also since the UK abolished border controls on those leaving the country to save costs there is no easy way to monitor how long an individual spends in or out the country. Hence the UK's inability to identify how many illegal immigrants there are! 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sprogster"]since the UK abolished border controls on those

leaving the country[/quote]There may be no overt controls but you still

need a passport to get out - and generally to back in, so it's all a matter of record somewhere and those records can be accessed if required.

Remember too that the onus is always on the individual to prove what they claim, not on the authorities to disprove it.

Still, lets not hijack the topic on this point.

[NickP]

 I was freelance for 40 years and spent months and months away from the UK. Nobody has ever has queried how much time I spent abroad; and in fact I don't think anyone cared. As Sprogster said; I paid my dues and taxes in the UK, although I usually worked and got paid by companies from other countries. Also it is the same for the rule that you can only spend so many days in France if you are a UK resident, who knows how many days in France when there are no border controls between France and most European countries?

[Chancer]

I dont think it is the case that you will be refused or have to pay, after being discharged from Cairns hospital following cerebral malaria I was allowed to return the the UK as log as my treatment continued at the hospital, I had an letter from the consultant explaining the situation, I had been out of the country for more than one year.

There were no problems at all at the doctors or hospital, no questions were asked about how long I had been away but I told them all when we discussed my travels.

Where there was an issue was with the DHSS, my doctor signed me off work and I claimed sickness benefit, because I had been away more than one month I had to do a habitual residency test and a right to reside test, both of which were a joke so I treated them as such giving answers to questions like "where did you come from and why did you come here?" as "from an egg in my mummies tummy fertilised by my daddys seed, I had no motive to be born in the UK its where my mother lived" and "did you bring any possessions with you, what were they, if not why not?" as "the only thing I had was an umbilical cord and persons unknown took it away without my permission.

 The clerk then decided to fill in the answers for me to sign at the end.

I have also been back in the UK on a short trip and suffered a recidive of a detached retina, the eye hospital knew that I had only recently been discharged from the CHU Amiens, again I gave them my case notes, they operated on me without any questions re time spent in France but agin they knew it was most of the year, I was there for a few days and they released me with discharge notes to take to France knowing that I intended to continue the treatment there.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="powerdesal"]MOZMAN wrote:- ''In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.'' My UK passport refers to me as a ''British Citizen''[/quote]

For the record - we have not been "termed subjects" since 1983. As Powerdesal points out, our legal status is citizen of the United Kingdom.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="powerdesal"]MOZMAN wrote:- ''In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.'' My UK passport refers to me as a ''British Citizen''[/quote]

Yes but your EU first and UK second which incidentally made me think that this will be another nice little earner for the government if the UK left the EU. Whats a new passport cost these days because seeing as it is an EU passport first we would all need new UK only passports (bit like if Scotland leave the union). I bet a few people would have a right old whinge when they discover they have to replace theirs. It's all the little things, many have EU driving licences, they would have to be changed. Sorry but it just came in to my head as I was typing.

[/quote]

Why? I don't know about you, but I had a UK passport when we joined the EU and I wasn't obliged to change it. When the standard EU passport was introduced, no-one got one until they traded it in against an expired UK passport. I should imagine that, should the UK leave the EU, passports will be replaced as they expire. It's not as if the details contained inside the cover are going to change in any way, it probably just means you'll have to show the darned thing more often, or join a different queue. But then, we're discussing a hypothetical and IMO very unlikely scenario. And I'm still a British Citizen, too.

Driving licences, likewise. I'm guessing that they'll be changed as and when they come up for renewal, if a change is required at all. However, I don't think the licence is an EU -only model, but I could be wrong.

[Sprogster]

AnOther, you do not actually need a passport to leave the UK. If you recall nobody looks at your passport leaving the UK other than the airline employee when you show your boarding pass at check in or the gate and this is just to check your identity matches the boarding card and ensure you have the appropriate passport and visa if required to gain entry to your destination country, as if you are refused entry on arrival the airline can be fined if they should have denied you boarding and are responsible for repatriating you.  If you fly to Eire or the C.I, no passports are required at all and if you leave the country by private boat or plane there are no passport checks on departure either.

I am not aware of a single instance of a British Citizen who is UK tax resident and pays their National Insurance being denied UK health care.