MOZMAN

The French need to wake up. People are entitled to make a fair living from effort. It seems that they are still trying to effectively run a communist state!!!! The Public sector will die without private enterprise - FACT

[quote user="EuroTrash"]I agree with Quillan, it is a mindset issue. I believe French kids have lessons at school about society and their duties as a citizen, too extreme maybe, whereas maybe a little more of that in the UK rather than all 'me me me' might not be a bad thing. I also think the OPs references to the Revolution are relevant though perhaps not in the way he thinks - 1800 is really not that long ago in the history of a country, the UK has only got through half a dozen or so monarchs since then, and I do get the feeling that that it is recent enough for the French to still be proud that their ancestors fought for today's democracy and they are unwilling to throw it out as no longer fit for purpose. They are certainly not going to start another revolution but maybe they should move on from the last one. But for all that, when you look at the huge difference in the French and UK mindsets when it comes to business, I don't see a corresponding huge difference in their respective economies - they're both in the sticky stuff.[/quote] My Wife was a teacher in the UK and I agree that our kids do not learn enough about society and the general the values of respect and contribution. I suppose it is about balance and children realising a degree of social responsibility but that they are also individuals and not part of a state machine.  In the UK we are still termed subjects, whilst in France citizens.  I prefer the later term and accept that in essence the French Revolution created the distinction.  This is all fine but we nust still come back to the fiscal aspects of all this.  The State has become to big and expensive, it does not produce.  The French need to balance the sound ideals of citizenship with sound economics.  I agree it is about evolving from 1800 and embracing some change.  The model is increasingly unaffordable. I have noticed in the 11 years that we have lived near Orbec in Normandy and that the town has declined.  Indeed recently at a rapid rate.  The town is in huge debt and has no significant growth plans to trade out of this.  Therefore they will have to cut budgets, so it will get worse for the citizens.  When we purchased our house in France we felt that Orbec was more vibrant than Cheadle, Staffs - which is a larger market town.  This has totally reversed with Cheadle improving, despite the current recession and Orbec in continuing decline.  We recently met a local French journalist in Orbec who bemoaned the loss of 300 jobs and the increasing unemployment and social and financial difficulties that brings.  Indeed the attempted burglary at our house is a sign of this.  Also another person in the town that I can not name said just how badly the town was fairing and how it had declined.  That person was considering leaving France and emigrating for better opportunities. I agree that the French and UK economies are struggling.  Lets face it this was because of banks being greedy, an over inflated property market that relied on people feeling good about house values and governments who kept borrowing against unsustainable growth.  The UK is struggling to get going, hence why they are trying to encourage small businesses with sensible tax regimes and rules. The French are not doing this so I would value any enlightenment as to how the French are going to get out of it.  Subsidies are illegal and not the answer. Much of the big picture is above our heads.  But simply you can only really be happy if you are living in the environment you want in relative comfort.  Also some certainty that your hard earned money is not going to be grabbed.

IDUN, Thanks for this. I think whilst working with my business in UK I am hoping to have more visits to France than an employer would allow. Perhaps 15 - 20 weeks a year based on about 10 visits.  Eventually it would be nice if this increases.  When retirement looms then I think it more likely the decision of tax residence, tax payable and of course most importantly where you want to live that comes to the fore. Regarding artidans.  I agree they have large social charges and as such have to pass these on.  The economy os tight now and many people will - put off work, do it them selves or use the black economy.  None of these aspects actually puts money to the taxman, so instead of growing the pie he just taxes those that will pay, and are easy to tax, more.  This puts even more pressure to keep salaaries down as business needs to maintain profit.  Therefore it the individual who is squeezed as alaways. Goes back to some of my points about why Hollande does not want small businesses to start.  He wants people working in the state owned monopolies or public sector where it is so easy to keep an eye on them and define tax and social charges and take them.   This will not achieve any growth, yet Hollande keeps on about wanting this!!!!

France is a land of bureaucrats. Bureaucrats do not make money or create wealth and properity. They suck money out and often get in the way, This does also so happen more in the UK than of yore. The observations of French business professionals and academics does really say it all. The goose is being killed and there will be few eggs.  Personally I think you would have to be very brave to start a business in France that employed people. If you are earning enough to be happy then great.  But what happens if tax becomes too great and what about retirement.  Do people really want the upset that is involved with packing bags, giving up the great aspects of France culture and lifestyle because they have a system that is so clearly broken.  Not a place to do business,  Get your wealth elsewhere then retire to France and enjoy it.

Eurotrash makes the point of doing things for your country and not what it does for you. This is fine when things are going well and the money is flowing. The reality is that it has not been flowing for several years. This was masked in France due to the falseness of Sarkozy massaging economics before the election. In the Uk we were ahead of France in the cycle as our elections were some time before. I do not think 'State' has the right to expect us humble citezens/subjects (depending how you look at this) to keep tightening our belt and paying for Government inability to manage a business. No matter you politics Machiavelli rules the individual - more so in some. If Hollande does not know this then he is truely an idiot!!!! There are some excellent sayings like 'enjoy the best of both worlds' and 'do not put all your eggs in one basket'. I actually think that enjoying two cultures makes one appreciate each cuture more and the differences when in either. We must take off the rosy coloured glasses and understand that fundamentally economics drives everything. I have spoken with my local Farmer in France many times about our relative cultures and politics. Emanuelle is hard working with a family and aspires to look aftre his family. He was dreading the fact that the French would put Hollande in. During a recession that last thing you need is Socialism that takes and gives to those that only want to take. You need an entrepreneurial approach that creates and rewards wealth. It is the private sector that creates the money and tax to pay for public servants. If my business struggles I work harder, cut my costs where I can and accept that that is how it is.  The only safety net is the one I make.  I should not expect a handout.  I know a lady in my local town who works with the Maire and she has been frustrated for years at the Socialist mindset that does not reward enterprise. Going back to the start of my thread, this is really the point.  If the pie gets smaller so to do the slices and the peasants will start fighting over the scraps - Reminds me of the revolution and Bastille Day!!!!!

I understand your points and they are about personal choice and values. The thread is about competitiveness economically and how that impacts on individuals. Norman missed the point completely. It is possible to enjoy both cultures, and I enjoy France. But not to the extent where it could result in financial misery if Hollande keeps going as he is. His actions against the rich are complete suicide. Who will want to invest in France other than the French? I am always pleased if people have found contentment and clearly you have. I do not get high blood pressure by worrying about things I can not change, but things will not change if we do not debate them. If things remain under the lid you end up with Bastille Day. I do not think people would want that again!!!!!

Largely correct. The category of business consultant is wide ranging and allows me to offer many more services than I would have been able to in France. Also an issue with France recognising qualifications. It took three hours and in fact it cost me £4.99 and then I got £50 back into the new account I opened with Barclatys. So made a profit from starting a company. So, simple,cost effective and relevant. Not only that 20 months before one pays Corporation Tax and 21 months before I pay any self assessment income tax. These will be zero, so effectively another 12 months before I pay my tax that will then be due. This involves no fiddling, just working to the available rules.  Only pay £2.40 per week for NI as I have paid my 30 years in. Governments have lost the right for people to be charitable to the State. They lost control of public finaces through greed and I do not feel the need to be one of those that is exploited to dig them out of the hole. France is great and I love the cuddly bits - but not at all cost. How many have had to sell up and come back because of economic factors. Why are so many French coming here. I am told there are half a million in London.

This is true. However in France as a Consultant I would have been more limited than in the UK in terms of the specifics that could be covered and the French myopia that people can only do things if they have French qualifications. My Wife has an honours Degree and PGCE, yet this is not good enough for the French. French professionals are allowed to come here and work, we recognise hard earned qualifications. The French remain protectionist and inward looking. The British as an island nation have always looked out and this is a fundamental difference, especially with the EURO issues, that will go on for years. I would have loved to have settled in France two years ago. The culture and perceived way of life are seductive. We have a lovely home in a beautiful place. But it was clear that we could not trust France in the likely shape of Hollande to be realistic. We see far to many people in France sponging off the state, playing Rapido in the local Tabac. It was like this in UK before Thatcher and thankfully she had the bottle to sort this. I remember Red Robbo at British Leyland. France needs similar momentum, but it will not happen. The idea of two hours for lunch is great. But not being able to speak to anyone at Britline at lunch time is simply archaic in a modern business world. France needs business people and entrepreneurs to create jobs and wealth. Hollande is simply driving this away as Labour did in Britain in the 70's. I think France needs dose of Anglo Saxon logic.

Hi Norman, The whole point of the post was to highlight the issues France faces with offering a tax system that is inflexible and onerous.  The best way of doing this is to draw comparison with an economy that I know well in the UK.  Two years ago I was offered a decent job in French terms in Caen.  When you considered the taxes etc, just not worth it.  Clearly financial needs and priorities change through life.  Pension provision is being hammered so it is upto individuals to find ways of providing for themselves.  Paying loads of money to the State as reward for running a business and taking big risks is not the way forward.  In effect the UK realise this and France do not.  Still too many matters that have not evolved from the axe that Napoleon took to the laws. The revolution was in 1793, things need to move on. Regarding the attraction of France to us.  The recent article from a senior French politician in the Telegraph says it all.  She is concerned that the World is vilifying France for draconian tax policies and that this will harm France.  She majored on the usual positive aspects of variety of landscape, food, culture etc.  All these are true.  But people need jobs and generally a fair reward for effort.  The beauty of France for us is that we can enjoy all of these for upto 6 mths a year whilst not being hammered by Hollande.  When we choose to retire it then comes down to where the permanent resting place is and that it suits ones finances.  In any event Governments of all persuasions will act as modern day Dick Turpin's, it is just to what degree and the French simply have it wrong.  It is often said that the French operate the only working Communist style economy in the world that works.  I now challenge that it will work.  France are losing many entrepreneurs and high earners so that says it all.  These people will still enjoy France for much of their lives but not at the cost France demands.   Regards,   Pete

We have owned a house in France for 11 years as a second home and believe we have some perspective on both countries and theease of creating a business in either country.  I looked at setting up a small business in France about 2 years ago.  The restrictions to offer multiple services, the red tape, level of tax and social charges and employment laws make it an enterprise for the brain dead in France.  Sorry if youy have ebusiness, but I am making comparison. I set up a consultancy business in England about 12 months ago.  Ltd Company set up in 24 hrs and I can offer any service I want.  My Wife and I are Directors and can earn about £16k with no tax or NI.  Use of allowances expands this in reality.  This is only a small business but I estimate that quite legally I will not part with any money for any form of tax for two years. The French under Hollande seem keen to tax entrepreneurs and wealth creators to death.  What do they think this will do?  They will leave of course as happened under Labour in the UK in the 70's.  Is this man brain dead?  But of course his motivation is to build the power of the state, look after the socilist public sector workers.  Individual businesses are going to be squeezed, Hollande does not want small entrepreneurs.  He wants the power of the state.  He will subsidise big firms and industry and drive small business to the wall. I for one would be delighted to spend 182 days a year in France per year but thank God I would still be UK tax resident.  I look forward to the day that I do retire to France having sold my business and other assets in the UK with the bonus of then having a primary home in France which will not attract the draconian rate of Capital Gains Tax that this moron has imposed.  He really would not be allowed to run a sweetshop here. I regret that the French are really in for a rude awakening.  Wealth creation will decline and this will continue to accellerate, those working and with business will get incresingly robbed.  The cycle will get ever quicker.  Both the UK aand France have to grasp the nettle of growing the pie not taking bigger slices from smaller pies.  At least in the UK there is half a chance of making a go of a new business!!!!!    

Hi, Does anybody know of a good English speaking electrician who can do some work on our house near Orbec. If so please contact [email protected] Many Thanks

Hi, Does anybody know of a good English speaking electrician who can do some work on our house near Orbec. If so please contact [email protected]   Many Thanks