Right, guys, without heated debate, let's have the reasons for UK leaving.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

That's why a federation would have to be set up to stop the EU setting all these ridiculous laws.

The federal government would have certain laws and powers, but could not exceed that authority, while each sovereign country handles the rest. The US federal government has only 14 areas of power which it can enact, the rest is handled by each individual state.

[Thibault]

I don't think there is much mileage in comparing a united states of Europe with the USA. The US was basically an empty country when the Europeans arrived, apart from the Native American tribes which were easily contained and pushed out of areas where the Europeans wanted to settle.

As the various States came into being, they benefited from having a common language and roughly the same approach to laws etc. so they were able to fit into a federal framework without too much difficulty.

Europe, on the other hand, was made up of a number of individual nations before the EU - each with its own language, culture, approach to laws etc, as well as a history of having fought to become that individual nation. and what is proposed is to impose a federal structure on top of already existing nation states - a different case entirely.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Well there's part of the answer then.

Make everyone learn English. It's daft having all these different languages because it makes it so hard to be understood.

Once that's happened, then Europe can be united under a federation, which would have to be run from London because that's where English is spoken.

Actually, wasn't there something doing the rounds a few years ago about getting English speakers to speak German? It was a joke thing and it would take several years to change. First part was to remove w and replace with v. Then words starting in th were replaced with z. It was quite funny and clever.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Well there's part of the answer then.

Make everyone learn English. It's daft having all these different languages because it makes it so hard to be understood.

Once that's happened, then Europe can be united under a federation, which would have to be run from London because that's where English is spoken.

Actually, wasn't there something doing the rounds a few years ago about getting English speakers to speak German? It was a joke thing and it would take several years to change. First part was to remove w and replace with v. Then words starting in th were replaced with z. It was quite funny and clever.
[/quote]

After many years of infighting mainly with the French English is now the official second language and is compusory in all EU schools as a second language. Not to keen on it where I live as the second language for generations has been Spainish or Catalan.

[dwmcn]

Thibault,

So, the US Cival War never happened?

David

'As the various States came into being, they benefited from having a common language and roughly the same approach to laws etc. so they were able to fit into a federal framework without too much difficulty.'

 

[Quillan]

I wondered about the US and the English language. Whilst it is true to say that English is the common language across most of North America just like the EU many states also spoke and still do speak in some communities other languages depending on their European roots. According to the NY Times the University of Chicago has found that apart from the two most obvious alternative languages spoken (i.e. Italian and Spanish) Portuguese, Polish, Swedish, Czech, Norwegian, French (and dialects), Dutch and Danish are still spoken as the first language in some communities not to mention of course the indigenous collection of Native American languages. However, just like Europe now it is compulsory for them all to speak English as well as a common language.

So unlike the Americas where a primary language has been forced upon all each EU state still has it's own language with an official second language. Of course it has to be said it is pretty handy for us that it just happens to me English. If you look on the EU website you will find that it is the diversity of the customs, practices and cultures of each unique member state that make the EU what it is and enriches everyone within it.

[Thibault]

[quote user="dwmcn"]

Thibault,

So, the US Cival War never happened?

David

'As the various States came into being, they benefited from having a common language and roughly the same approach to laws etc. so they were able to fit into a federal framework without too much difficulty.'

 

[/quote]

Wasn't this more to do with the right to own slaves? And IIRC the Confederacy intended to have a federal system - just one of its own.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

When the Constitution was written, certain compromises had to be made for all the States to agree and join it. For example, New York wanted more rights for the people to protect them from possible governmental tyranny. This is how the Bill of Rights was written, as the writers promised that if NY agreed, the first act of business by the new government would be to propose and introduce these rights. 13 amendments were proposed, 10 were approved, 2 would be approved many years later, and the final one is still up in the air.

As for slavery, most of the writers of the constitution were troubled by this, as it went against the principles and rights of man they wanted to protect, but seeing as the south's economy was reliant on it, they had little choice but leave the issue of slavery for the time being. Of course, over the next 60 years or so, slavery started to be abolished by the Europeans on moral grounds, and eventually the civil war led to it being abolished under the 15th amendment (I think it was).

Incidentally, when Jefferson wrote the Declaration for Independence, heavily plagiarizing words by John Locke, he changed the now famous "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Locke's words were Life, Liberty, and property. Had he left the word property in, it would have made slavery extremely difficult to abolish in the US, as the fundamental document for self governance would have stated that it was man's right to own a slave.

So, while slavery was still an issue at the beginning of the formation of the federal government, there were still provisions put in place that allowed it to eventually be outlawed, although it took a bloody war some 60 years later to do this.

And I think that is the problem with government in the US today. Politicians should look back at the formation of their government and realize that it was formed based on compromise and not everybody got what they wanted. Wish the Democrats and Republicans would realize this as they put their own beliefs before the good of the nation.

[idun]

As we are discussing federal government, that pesky word Amendment, keeps coming up and the defence of Amendments in the USA.

I really believe that an amendment was an alteration to original text and in fact one could 'amend' an amendment, because it is a sort of correction. In the US it would appear that many mean that these words are actually written in stone and 'amendments' can NEVER be amended. And that makes no sense to me.

So if the EU, goes all US of E on us, will we have Amendments that are never to be touched??????? And who would write them??????? because at the moment I trust none of the guignols in government to decide for me.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

I agree with you that many think that the constitution can never be touched or changed, but they are wrong.

The founding fathers were actually pretty clever in that they expected society to change, and as such governmental aspects that worked at the time might become defunct in the future.

However, they have made it deliberately difficult to amend the Constitution. This is done so so that all deliberation and debate could be made so that the minority have a voice as well as the majority. For an amendment to be made, the following must occur:

First, either 2/3 of both houses of congress OR 2/3 of a national constitutional convention need to propose an amendment.

Then, to ratify it, either 3/4 of state legislatures OR 3/4 of state constitutional conventions need to approve it.

The other aspect of US government is that there are actually three branches. You have the executive branch (president and his cronies), the legislative branch (congress), and the judicial branch (supreme court). In theory, none of these branches are more powerful than the other, yet if one steps out of line, the others can pull it back into line. This protects the people from potential tyranny of government. Interestingly, the constitution did not protect the people from state government until the 14th amendment (I think it was). Then state government was brought into line with federal government in this aspect. This came about through a supreme court case.

So to answer your question, the constitution is not set in stone. It was never designed to be, and if the people wish it, the whole thing can be thrown out. This is the whole point of liberty.

[dwmcn]

Thibault,

Er, wot's that supposed to mean?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>dwmcn wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4"><P>Thibault,</P>
<P>So, the US Cival War never happened?</P>
<P>David</P>
<P>'As the various States came into being, they benefited from having a common language and roughly the same approach to laws etc. so they were able to fit into a federal framework without too much difficulty.' <BR><BR></P>
<P> </P></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

 

[dwmcn]

Mr Lion,

Sorry I brought it up. Too bad all you googling experts weren't around to help Jefferson, Franklin, et al.

David

[Thibault]

[quote user="dwmcn"]

Thibault,

Er, wot's that supposed to mean?

 

dwmcn wrote:

Thibault, So, the US Cival War never happened? David 'As the various States came into being, they benefited from having a common language and roughly the same approach to laws etc. so they were able to fit into a federal framework without too much difficulty.'

 

 

[/quote] As asked the other day, why is my use of quotations leading to all the machine code?

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="dwmcn"]

Mr Lion,

Sorry I brought it up. Too bad all you googling experts weren't around to help Jefferson, Franklin, et al.

David

[/quote]

Well, I didn't use google. I've been studying American government; the information has come from my notes and textbook.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Thibault"]As asked the other day, why is my use of quotations leading to all the machine code?

[/quote]

Its your browser, I keep editing them to make them look right. I don't have to actually change anything just click on the Edit button then Save them then they look OK.

[Quillan]

[quote user="dwmcn"]

Mr Lion,

Sorry I brought it up. Too bad all you googling experts weren't around to help Jefferson, Franklin, et al.

David

[/quote]

I think you will find he actually learnt it a a prerequisite to where he now lives.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="dwmcn"]

Mr Lion,

Sorry I brought it up. Too bad all you googling experts weren't around to help Jefferson, Franklin, et al.

David

[/quote]

I think you will find he actually learnt it a a prerequisite to where he now lives.

[/quote]

Actually not really. I had a choice between geography, psychology, and a few other subjects, but opted for American Government as I knew so little about it. Felt it would give me a good understanding as to why and how it is. Was very interesting, especially as I was doing a history class too, the two subjects dovetailed very well together as both started from around the enlightenment period.

I feel it my responsibility to understand how it works as one day I'll have the vote and I want to finally be able to know who the hell I am voting for :)

It'll also help me a great deal when I go for my citizenship test too. Ironically, first class the prof gave us the citizenship test. I did very badly, got something like 15%. I ended up finishing the course with the highest grade in the class, straight A all the way through :)

[YCCMB]

And, fascinating though it is, it's not necessarily a model for a united Europe. But we are following your further education with interest!

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it's certainly worth looking at to see which parts could work with a united Europe.

[idun]

BUT I do not want a united europe in the terms you mention Mr CdeL. Look at all those who tried.......the romans, french and germans and all the others over the years. Does it matter how it is done????? I don't think so. We are all different, too different.

And I am more than aware since I moved back to the UK as to just how different France is from the UK. We two peoples simply do not look at life in the same terms. My english friends do not 'get' that there is another way of looking at things, and how different is that from how hard I found to come to terms with France. I was there long enough for things french to 'rub off', but instant assimilation it was not.

The USA is a 'new' country, will it last????? I realise that most people will imagine that it will, but that isn't set in stone either.  I have been to the USA three times now and have enjoyed my time there and like the people I met. I have to say that in Florida I found my self a couple of times in places where no english was spoken at all. And won't the culture be 'latin' and not 'american' in these places??????

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Well, yes I think it does matter the way it is done. The three examples you mentioned were all done under military conquest, not through democracy.

Life is very different, yes of course it is, but due to globalisation, those differences will soon begin to diminish, especially through immigration, closer ties with other nations, cultural similarities (look at music for example; it's basically the same stuff in every western country now), and so on. Is it sad those differences will diminish? Perhaps yes, but it seems mankind struggles greatly with differences so maybe it won't be a bad thing. But the fact of the matter is, the world is getting closer together and will continue to do so. In 1000 years time, perhaps the concept of nations won't even exist and we can live in a totally united world. Seems unlikely right now, but who knows.

Nothing is set in stone. Nothing lasts forever.

I am not saying Europe needs to be as "united" as the USA, merely to look at and perhaps assimilate some of the better aspects of its federal system. I feel if something isn't done to either unite Europe, or to go the other direction and go the separate ways, then it will lag even further behind in comparison to Asia and the US economically. United we stand, divided we fall and all that. Right now, it looks like it is stuck in no mans land, not sure which way to go, and to be honest, I think that's the worse of the three options.

You can still keep your sovereignty, but also be part of a united federal system. For example, I look at how the states are now seeking to support Oklahoma after the tornados, and last year I saw the states come and support New Jersey after the hurricane. Sovereign states still separate, but still united.

[Quillan]

[quote user="idun"]BUT I do not want a united Europe
[/quote]

BUT I do and I respect your view but you should also respect those that differ, its their right just as it is your right not to want it.

This is what I mean when I say a 'generation' thing. Not many of our age group will want to be a member having been born during the 'baby boom' years and listening as a child to the horrific stories of what had happened in the recent (as it was then) past. Perhaps some should take a visit to Auschwitz or similar places and then understand that a united Europe as it is now ensures such an inhuman thing can never happen again. Divided and growing together in harmony is definitely the way forward. The thing is quite simple, be a member or live in isolation like America did many years ago and that nearly bought the country to its knees.

[dwmcn]

Mr Lion,

And he will find that I'm an American living in England. And If I decided to discuss archaeology, which I worked in for 15 years, I wouldn't be surprised that he he knew more about that than I do as well.

David

[dwmcn]

idun

Even the people in Florida who speak English don't really speak English.

David

[dwmcn]

Thibaut,

Well, that clears that up. Sort of.

David