France gets tough but NOT on the economy

[mint]

Here is a story about a Muslim woman wearing one of those face-covering garments (I don't know which one) being given the choice at a theatre to uncover her face or leave.

What are your views on this issue?

Apologies, can't do a live link but perhaps someone will sort it out, please?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2799981/woman-thrown-paris-opera-cast-refused-perform-unless-removed-muslim-veil.html

[vette]

I read the same story in the Connexion.

To be honest, it's the law, so she must obey it.

If you or I were to go to her country you would have no choice but to conform with their rules. I have served in the middle east so know how seriously they take things.

Personally, I agree that they should be banned, if only for security purposes.

[Spyder]

France probably is "her country" but I get your point in that we would have to obey the laws of a muslim country if we were to live there. Off course she should be banned and charged since she has broken the law.

Edit - I didn't read it properly, I see she was a visitor to France. Makes no difference to the fact that she was informed of the law and refused to obey.

[PaulT]

Perhaps a little interesting that the Human Right Court said OK to ban the face covering compared with some of the other rulings.

Certainly wearing these coverings is not really conducive to integration, nor to womens rights.

[idun]

I've looked at that book and it says that women should be modest and that is all I read into it. I actually feel like any covering, whether it be a nun or a muslim woman, or jewish woman with her wig is an affront to 'my' liberty and demeans all women. And that is how I feel about it.

It has been such a long haul for women to be 'liberated' that

anything cultural from the dark ages or further back, should be relegated to history as

far as I am concerned.

[lindal1000]

Reflecting on your comment Idun, whilst I see where your coming from, I actually find it more of an affront to my liberty and more demeaning to women to see them teetering around on high heel shoes, wearing pelmet length skirts etc.

Surely the issue with regard to 'liberation' is the element of choice. For the most part a nun has a choice. Some Muslim women see the choice to cover themselves as a choice as well, although I agree for others it might be an oppression. If I decide to cover my head with a headscarf or a wig.. perhaps because I have lost my hair due to chemo, or perhaps just because I want to.. is that the same.

[mint]

I do think there is something very unsettling about covering your face so that only your eyes are visible.

Even newborn babies learn very soon to distinguish their mothers' faces from those of other humans.Yes, it IS hardwired into our brains.

Masks are quite sinister things in our western culture:  think the balaclavas worn by the IRAs in Ireland, stockings pulled over faces in armed robbers, that ghastly latex thing worn by the  Phantom of the Opera (and that's only fiction and I know that Michael Crawford is underneath!)

Even bejewelled and decorated masks as worn by, for example, party goers have the aim of disguising the faces underneath the masks.  Most of us would probably have seen Amadeus the film.  When Mozart was writing his requiem, so the story line went, he kept seeing the face of Death in a mask.

We gather so much information from facial expressions; smiles, scowls, frowns, grimaces etc signifying joy, pleasure, anger, disdain.  Even my dog watches my face to gauge how much she can push me[:D]

I personally have never actually had a conversation with someone whose face is totally covered but I don't think I'ld enjoy the experience. 

[idun]

Ah...........the half nekkid girls tottering along on heels........ great! if they disrobed even more, I would not care one hoot, good on them. I was born in 1953 and believe me, I wore pelmet skirts when I was young, and leather boots that came above my knees and it was a wonderful time to be young. I also, wore long skirts too. I wore what I wanted and if I hadn't been so shy, because even shy girls wore pelmet skirts then, I would have worn even more outrageous clothing. I did envy those that did.

 And I certainly wouldn't mind it you cover your head, if you lose your hair. I  really

don't. That is a choice, a personal choice.  Nothing directing you to that.

For

me personal choice and dictated choice are worlds apart. I'll never see it in any other way than being oppression or liberty. And the idea of such oppression frightens me.

[PaulT]

I remember flying back from Sri Lanka once with Qatar Airways. We changed planes at Doha and the difference in dress between the Western women and the Middle East women was extremely marked especially as it was very hot.

[lindal1000]

I agree with all of that Idun. My point is if someone chooses to dress in a certain way be it for religious or other personal reasons then are they being oppressed. I worked with a girl from Saudi Arabia last year. She was very very vocal about the oppression of women in her country, but for herself she chose to cover her head..although she was free to wear what she wanted.

I also wore high heels when I was younger but I hated them. They made my feet sore and were generally so uncomfortable that I used to take them off and walk home bare foot. Fortunately I eventually outgrew succumbing to social pressure.

[YCCMB]

I flew a couple of times from Roissy to Djibouti, transitting through Riyadh (or Jeddah, I can't remember which).

Boarding in Paris, most of the people were dressed in a fairly European style, apart from a small number of women who wore burkas, gloves, you name it. It seemed to make boarding the aircraft a bit hazardous for them, but that was all.

What WAS quite startling was what happened as we landed in Saudi Arabia, where a large proportion of the passengers disembarked. Suddenly, they'd all changed into abayas (the women) or thobes (the men) and one bloke who I'd seen wearing a tweed overcoat when we'd boarded was leaving the plane dressed in what appeared to be a sort of toga. Which was a very odd sight, as he also takes the prize for having the most body hair I've ever seen on a human being.

The bloke who'd been sitting next to me, dressed in a very smart suit and chatting away quite animatedly about being a good muslim, had also changed into his thobe,but he nevertheless managed to carry the several bottles of Johnny Walker Black Label that the'd bought in the Duty Free shop at Roissy.....

[JandM]

As a liberal, I don't believe in banning things just because I don't like them. While I'd support the right of people to walk around with a sack over their head if they want to, I would also support the right of others not to engage with them. A few months ago in London a 'burkahed' woman with a small child asked me if I knew where a certain shop was and, once I'd recovered from the surprise of being approached by a lone Muslim woman, I told her that I didn't want to speak to someone who hid her face from me. As I see it, she had the right to wear what she wanted, and I had the right to ignore her. The obvious exception to this is in situations where there's a security question - airports etc.

[Mrs Trellis]

This is a difficult one! I believe it's right to respect people's choices and customs. (Except extremes such as FGM). I feel uncomfortable that France is so draconian in this matter.

However, I can't help feeling angry every time I see a woman shrouded in black like that. It's an insult to women to make them hide themselves. It's a custom often enforced by men - and not required by the Koran. Too bad if men would be so inflamed by the sight a woman's hair!

It must be awful in hot weather.

[idun]

We could now get into the philosophical debate as to why some people 'need' religion in their lives and others do not, but I would say that some of these things are not even religious, but cultural.

And once you move somewhere else, well, I would say my Bird's Custard Powder was innocuous as innocuous as say someone from the maghreb buying semoule to make a couscous. Where as covering up because there is some sort of cultural morality attached to it was quite different. And covering up is a statement, that 'I' am 'moral', so what does that make a woman who does not?

Afghanistan's women, at least in Kabul were in mini skirts in the 60's...... how quickly things can change.

Life is complicated. Women's rights were hard fought for and anything that diminishes such rights should be questioned and perhaps as the french have done, banned.

[YCCMB]

I've said before...living, as I do, in an area with a fairly large muslim popuation, covering people from various parts of the Indian subcontinent, I see people dressed "traditionally" all the time. Although I've always thought that wearing a sari and sandals in England in Winter must be very uncomfortable, and it does look a bit naff with the addition of a woolly cardi and an anorak. Round here, many young women of Asian origin cover their hair, and lots look stunningly attractive and wear lovely heascarves, artfully draped and pinned over their hair.

It looks incongruous, at best, to see a bloke in a beanie, jeans and a leather jacket out walking with his family when the wife is wearing a full burka, but I guess I've never really been "bothered" by it. What did bother me a LOT, on one occasion was watching a woman thus attired (and bespectacled, to boot) trying to reverse into a parking space in Tesco's car park. Owing to the fact that she only had a slot through which to see, and that she had to turn her head (and the slot didn't really turn with her head movements) she was presenting a clear and distinct danger to herself and other drivers, and must have taken at least five minutes to reverse into the space. If nothing else, under those circumstances, there must be clear H&S reasons why her mode of dress was unsuitable.

let's face it, whether or not you agree with their laws, at least the saudis have the good sense (or did, until quite recently) to prevent women from driving. Obviously, their rationale has little to do with the way they are required to dress, but at least it's a spinoff benefit.

[woolybanana]

One thing we could learn from the Saudi's then!

[BIG MAC]

Two things..

1) Don't dress like a Teepee

2) Learn to drive

I am now off on my motorbike complete with ski mask, full face helmet and iridium visor...got a night out at the double standards institute :-)

[idun]

[Www] surely you aren't confusing practicality with other nonsense. [:D]

[Jonzjob]

[quote user="Spyder"]France probably is "her country" but I get your point in that we would have to obey the laws of a muslim country if we were to live there. Off course she should be banned and charged since she has broken the law.

Edit - I didn't read it properly, I see she was a visitor to France. Makes no difference to the fact that she was informed of the law and refused to obey.

[/quote]

If it were that she came from 'her country', say England for example, and had broken the French law by driving on the wrong side of the road. Then was stopped and prosicuted because she had broken said law???

When in Rome wear a toga, i.e. if you are in a muslim country and decide to walk down a road swigging from a bottle of the Jonny Walker you got at the duty free, then you ain't going to get much sympathy from the local authorities are you. One, because you are breaking their law and two, because they want the contents of that bottle inside them, clandestinely of course [B]

I came through Stansted several years back and was waiting in the que to go through security. 20 or so in front of me was a body, male or female? dressed completely in a burka! It could have been anyone?

Mind you? You could always go for the family photo

[URL=http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Jonzjob/media/Johns/PointlessFamilyPhotooftheYear-1_zpse730b4cd.jpg.html][IMG]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/Jonzjob/Johns/PointlessFamilyPhotooftheYear-1_zpse730b4cd.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[vivienz]

Why should any woman be required to dress modestly?  I agree entirely with the sentiments of the OPs that it's been such a long and hard won battle for women to gain any sort of equality, it's important to protect those rights.  I fail to see why any person would wear a garment such as a burkha without a lifetime of indoctrination and the threat of being made a social outcast.  I still wear high heels with reasonable frequency because I think they look great.  I don't really care whether anyone else agrees with my style and fashion choices, because they are my choices.  If I'm wearing heels with my jeans and have to walk far enough that they may make my feet hurt, then I opt for a bit of Copenhagen-style cycle chic and use my bike instead (wearing my heels, of course)!  It's a shame that I can't get a colour coordinated trouser clip, though.

[Thibault]

I have no objection to Muslim or other faith women covering their hair with a head scarf or wearing garments which cover arms and legs. I do object strongly however to women covering their entire face, with just a small slit so their eyes show.

In our culture, we read body language and facial expression is a fundamental part of that. There was a teaching assistant who lost her job because she would not show her face and the children had great difficulty communicating with her. She went to court, and lost.

If women were to go to Saudi or some other strongly Muslim country, they would not expect to walk around in revealing clothes because that is the culture of that country, if not the law. There should be a reciprocal arrangement with Muslim women who live in Western culture.

[mint]

[quote user="vivienz"]Why should any woman be required to dress modestly?  I agree entirely with the sentiments of the OPs that it's been such a long and hard won battle for women to gain any sort of equality, it's important to protect those rights.  I fail to see why any person would wear a garment such as a burkha without a lifetime of indoctrination and the threat of being made a social outcast.  I still wear high heels with reasonable frequency because I think they look great.  I don't really care whether anyone else agrees with my style and fashion choices, because they are my choices.  If I'm wearing heels with my jeans and have to walk far enough that they may make my feet hurt, then I opt for a bit of Copenhagen-style cycle chic and use my bike instead (wearing my heels, of course)!  It's a shame that I can't get a colour coordinated trouser clip, though.

[/quote]

Lol, Vivienz, OTOH, those burkha thingies must be sooooooooooo liberating to wear?

For a start, no worries about bingo wings, cellulite, muffin tops, saggy breasts, ditto bottom, etc [:D]

Also, whether your slip, bra straps, VPL are showing!  In fact wardrobe malfunction (stupid phrase but très courant) banished forever...

Then I'm not even talking about bad hair days, eyes like p@ss-holes-in-the-snow days, so-not-front-cover-of-Times-magazine days and all those other days when we feel less than fragrant and put-together?

No need to fret just because your personal shopper/stylist is off sick, YET AGAIN[:D]  Just pull the old burkha over the head and off you go!

Any suggestions as to where I could move where wearing one of these garments would not draw attention to myself?[:D]

[Mrs Trellis]

Why on earth would anyone appoint a teaching assistant who won't show her face. (Maybe she didn't hide it at the interview, which would have been dishonest.)

Unfortunately not all western women respect the customs of other countries. I cringe at the memory of an older Brit wearing a revealing tiny top at a Moroccan airport. And a friend's teenage daughter and pals begged to come home from Tunisia after wearing UK skimpy fashion and then being constantly bothered by men.

[idun]

We were not allowed into the cathedral in St Marks Sq in Venice in the 1970's, as we were in short shorts, they were simply normal shorts then, no worse than male football players would wear.

And yet, when I went to the Vatican about 7 years ago, the girls seemed to wear as little as they wanted. And the body guards, well they were disgusting, they were obviously commenting on these young women and eyeing them up and down in a very unhealthy way. I wouldn't care these were young men and quite good looking and should not have looked like leche's.

mint, if ever I get that self conscious, I'll not get out of bed. The bad hair, wrinkles, overweight, bingo wings..... and they are just my good points.....

.............what the heck, I'm an old gal and I am what I am. At my age, one does become invisible really, apart from the other day when a few people, I didn't know, smiled at me. Checked that I hadn't got dinner on my face, or my skirt tucked in my knickers, but no, just a nice smile, which I reciprocated.

[woolybanana]

I do hope it was not the short shorts of your youth that you are still wearng, Idun. Maybe the look was one of fear or sympathy?