idun Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Apologies if this has been mentioned before.My son told me last night that the owners of all rented property had to install fire alarms by spring next year. So if you have tenants you should look into this.In fact he thought that all properties would have to have them and would not be covered by their insurance if they didn't. As he said, what he 'thinks' may not quite be the case...... and we both reckoned that they were a good idea to start with.In my case, though, having one or not seems a mute point...... but that is quite another story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowland Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Read an article last week (sorry, can't remember where) that said they were going to be a legal requirement in all french properties and that insurance may be invalid if you don't have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 1st Jan 2015 for B&B's. They need to be the combined smoke and fire detectors type. The price has relly dropped now. Those mobile DIY shop/lorries sell them for under 20 Euros I noticed the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 No smoke without fire Quillan [:D]terminoogy wise stand alone smoke detectors and rate of rise heat detectors are not "fire alarms" but a complete system including those elements (interconnected by cables or radio) together with sounders, break glasses, standby batteries etc is a Fire alarm (system);Larger establishments require these, I have one but for my own peace of mind however French law dictates that there must be a reception desk or gardien on site available or open 24/7 to silence/reset the alarm, none of the budget hôtels or the massive AppartHôtels even with hundreds of rooms comply with that one!Quillan, are these dual detectors combined smoke and rate of rise heat detectors or perhaps combined ionisation and optical smoke detectors?Legally France cannot insist on them being NF marked only that they meet CE régulations and are marked as such but they have probably created a new NF standard to favour their manufacturers who no doubt buy from China but you can bet all the inspection bodies will swallow the tale and insist on the NF ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 [quote user="Chancer"]No smoke without fire Quillan [:D]terminoogy wise stand alone smoke detectors and rate of rise heat detectors are not "fire alarms" but a complete system including those elements (interconnected by cables or radio) together with sounders, break glasses, standby batteries etc is a Fire alarm (system);Larger establishments require these, I have one but for my own peace of mind however French law dictates that there must be a reception desk or gardien on site available or open 24/7 to silence/reset the alarm, none of the budget hôtels or the massive AppartHôtels even with hundreds of rooms comply with that one!Quillan, are these dual detectors combined smoke and rate of rise heat detectors or perhaps combined ionisation and optical smoke detectors?Legally France cannot insist on them being NF marked only that they meet CE régulations and are marked as such but they have probably created a new NF standard to favour their manufacturers who no doubt buy from China but you can bet all the inspection bodies will swallow the tale and insist on the NF ones.[/quote]I have absolutly no clue except that the detect smoke and fires and run on a battery. The cost me around £50 each, we have one in the hall where the bedrooms are, another in the entrance hall and one in the lounge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Kent II Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 This is something which I received from an acquaintance with a home in France. I think it was something he had received from another acquaintance. I hope it helpsFrench-Property.com Smoke Detectors Obligatory from 2015Tuesday 01 February 2011The installation of smoke detectors is to be obligatory in all homes from 2015. The new regulations recently issued by the government make it clear that this requirement will apply equally to existing homes as well as new properties. At the present time only around 2% of the 33 million properties in France are equipped with a smoke detector, so the fire equipment industry is lining itself up for a bonanza in sales.This is a measure that has had a long gestation period, as enabling legislation was first passed in the French Parliament in 2005. However, behind the scenes there has been a lively debate about who should have responsibility for the installation of the alarms in rental properties. In the end the government have decided that the obligation applies to the occupant of the property, excepting those in seasonal and furnished lettings.The new decree is as yet short on other detail, so there will be more detailed regulations to be issued in the future. At the moment it seems only one smoke detector will be required in each property, but that could change.There is no stipulation that it should be either powered by battery or from the mains supply, except that if it is the latter, the alarm must be able to operate in the absence of electrical power. Once the installation has been carried out, then owners and tenants must notify their insurer.Somewhat oddly, however, the regulations do not permit an insurer to refuse a policy on the grounds that no smoke detector is installed. They merely have the right to apply a much larger ‘excess’ on the policy.There are around 800 deaths each year in France from house fires, 70% of which happen at night when the victim is asleep. Contrary to perceived opinion, the odour of smoke does not wake a person; the carbon monoxide actually plunges a person into a deeper sleep, and can be mortal within 15 minutes with only 1% of carbon monoxide in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Well rather than rely on a 3 year old article in an English magazine perhaps the French law might be more illuminating/http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000027169390The law dose not just concern rented properties but all logements, we are all supposed to have fitted smoke detectors to our dwellings (not combined smoke and fire detectors which dont exist and are an oxymoron), in the case of rented accomodation the supply and install is the responsability of the propriétaire and the ongoing maintenance that of the locataire.They do not have to conform to a norme francaise, indeed I dont even think that there is one, just to carry the CE marking which in their eyes will signify that they have passed testing in an accredited laboratory but in reality everything that comes out of China will be CE marked, they can be battery or mains but in the case of the latter should have a battery back up.I was amazed to read that they are banned from being used in the common areas of multi-habitation buildings which would mean that all fire alarm systems are now illegal but on closer inspection only stand alone ones are banned.And still France ignores the existence of smokeseal on fire doors despite it being an EU requirement and in use in all other countries and insists on désenfumage to feed oxygen to any fire [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Chancer do you know if Pyro is available in france for the mains powered sensor/alarms systems? if not how does someone prevent a system failure should the cable melt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 The stuff they use is a chocolate teapot Teapot [:D]http://www.conrad.fr/ce/fr/product/1023978/Cble-dalarme-incendie-1-x-2-x-08-mm-rouge-LappKabel-J-YSTYLG-1X2X08-BMK-1708001;jsessionid=123F936BE3306ECFDBD69F05FA2BD155.ASTPCEN31?ref=listJust a LSF aluminium screened rather than aluminium armoured cable like Pirelli FP200I used FP2OO but had to run it in gaines [:-))], a bit of a challenge to pull through! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 [quote user="Chancer"]I used FP2OO but had to run it in gaines [:-))], a bit of a challenge to pull through![/quote]Now that is something I would like to have seen or is that heard [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 [quote user="Théière"]Chancer do you know if Pyro is available in france for the mains powered sensor/alarms systems? if not how does someone prevent a system failure should the cable melt?[/quote]Best to install at least two. They are mains powered with battery back-up. If the signal cabling between alarms fails, then they trip and sound as a fail-safe.I have two new alarms for France to be installed, next trip. Made by Dicon.There are two disparate types of Smoke Detectors today: Ionisation and Optical. The optical detectors simply detect a change in ambient lumens.The Ionisation Detectors are more reliable and detect smaller traces of smoke earlier.Rise of Temperature detectors need to very carefully sited and should be adjustable: cheaper items are not.Since Mrs Gluey and I finished up in A and E under observation for smoke inhalation in the early hours last September in UK when our dishwasher burst into flames and destroyed the new kitchen and did much damage to the rest of the house, I am now perhaps rather paranoid about these areas!On this point: whilst it is tempting to stick the dishwasher. washing machine, tumble dryer on to take advantage of cheaper electricity rates, and toddle off to the arms of Morpheus; don't!The county fire chief later informed me most domestic incidents are now appliance kitchen fires............ If Mrs Gluey had not "Heard a noise downstairs" apparently a few minutes more and we would have been no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Paranoid is not a phrase I would use when you have suffered that close shave! Thanks for the info, and a friend of mine suffered similar and that year there were according to the fire officer 19,000 fires from domestic kitchen equipment with washer dryers being high on that list.Beko were recently fined for knowing that their machines had a potential fire issue and doing nothing about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 The dishwasher was a Hotpoint; in theory. However once I drilled down into the machine, found it was actually a Bosch, re-branded.And then going further, discovered these machines have been bursting into flames all over the place; and even, sadly, killing people. In France, Germany, Australia, Canada, USA.... Bosch had mounted, eventually, a very high-profile product recall and alert programme, reputed to have cost them over One Billion Euros.See here:The cause was a faulty PCB; the track to a relay which enabled the heater, was far too narrow for the current load. As the relay solder-pin-thru mountings overheated then the solder melted and a very high contact point resistance caused the board to incinerate. Nice.Hotpoint (Now Indesit-Hotpoint) utterly failed to notify users. For the purposes of my insurance claim, I called out our local excellent domestic appliance engineers, who are accredited and suppliers of leading brands and authorised spares agents. The engineer is very friendly with a Hotpoint senior engineer and called him. Two days later a mature Hotpoint staff engineer (nice chap) called to inspect the machine and was duly horrified! "Worst one I've ever seen!" he said.Some time after this, Hotpoint wrote to Mrs Gluey a warning letter in red advising customers they might have a problem, Houston!Bit bloody late, I thought.... proves, however they had her name and address on file, which they ought to have, as she purchased the machine and registered it with Hotpoint for an extended warranty.However the next port of call is a law suit against Indesit-Hotpoint, under the legal tenet of Tort: useful to have that letter, as we are claiming their negligence in not so notifying was what is called a "Tortious Act". i.e.they were in clear possession of facts of common notoriety yet chose to do nothing, despite their customers being at risk of life and limb.I'm looking forward to this one![6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ventodue Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 [quote user="Chancer"]Well rather than rely on a 3 year old article in an English magazine perhaps the French law might be more illuminating http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000027169390 [/quote]+1 [:)]. Makes me laff, tho'. We have always installed smoke detectors in all our rented properties. Of course, since the tenants and/or their friends are smokers, they take the batteries out ...[quote user="Chancer"] And still France ignores the existence of smokeseal on fire doors, despite it being an EU requirement and in use in all other countries and insists on désenfumage to feed oxygen to any fire [:(] [/quote]Me too, Chancer [8-)].P.s. According to the Mairie de Paris, the legislation has actually been in place since 2010; but le loi ALUR has changed things by making it the reponsibility of the owner to install detectors in rented accommodation. Go http://www.paris.fr/accueil/logement/detecteurs-de-fumee-obligatoires-dans-les-logements-en-2015/rub_9649_actu_142622_port_23745) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Interesting reading:Tous les détecteurs de fumée mis en vente en Europe doivent répondre à la norme EN 14604 qui est la seule norme en vigueur sur ce territoire. La conformité à cette norme est attestée par la présence du sigle « CE » sur le DAAF. Ce sigle doit toujours être accompagné d’un numéro qui permet d’identifier l’organisme indépendant qui a vérifié la conformité du produit (par exemple, l’organisme français, AFNOR, est désigné par le numéro 0333). Au-delà de ce marquage obligatoire, il est recommandé de choisir un DAAF doté de la certification NF. Cette certification est délivrée par l’AFNOR, organisme indépendant assurant le contrôle régulier du marché et elle constitue un gage supérieur de fiabilité et d’efficacité, grâce aux contrôles réguliers mis en place.So the NF marked ones that we are being pushed to buy and no doubt the insurers and accreditation bodies will insist on are far Superior because they will have been made to a Norme Francaise and tested by Afnor.Only one problem with that, the Norme does not exist, it is no more than a project announced in 2012 which will cost you €149 to read [:-))] to be honest I doubt the French are competent to write a norme, certainly not one that exceeds EN 14604 and as for manufacturing détecteurs that comply, no chance, they will just give their pals the right to print NF on their imported detectors (for a price) whilst prosecuting others that do so because there is no Norme [:D], will they rigourously test the ones sold by the French importers? (I wont say manufacturers) or just pick on the worst of the pound shop ones, do a rigged experiment for TV with a talkinh head saying just how dangerous they are like they do with the contrefaçon disjoncteurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 When I was talking to my son, he reckoned that the landlord had to put the fire detector in, and that they cost about 15, but whether he said £'s or €'s I cannot remember! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Shouldn't it printed FN as that really sums up what it's about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ventodue Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 [quote user="idun"]When I was talking to my son, he reckoned that the landlord had to put the fire detector in .. <snip>[/quote](For rented accommodation) Your boy's right, Idun - see Chancer's post above (or follow the link given in mine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitway Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 According to the two sapeur pompiers sat next to me at this moment Smoke detectors are mandatory from 9th March 2015 in every residential propertyedit just found a linkhttp://www.net-iris.fr/veille-juridique/actualite/26261/detecteur-de-fumee-obligatoire-en-2015-dans-tous-les-logements.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 I am rather glad that my lad is on the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I have always had smoke detectors and CO2 detectors and would not feel fully comfortable without them (note to self: check/change the batteries)Whilst this is a sensible bit of legislation, how is it going to be policed?Will we be getting a knock on the door and some official demanding to see the detectors?Or will it just be a case of insurance companies not paying out in the event of a fire if they can show you didn't have a detector?If the latter then the Insurance Co must be rubbing their hands with glee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Policed............ yes, you are right, house burns down, no fire detector....... no payment.I know of at least three people in France who have lost their properties to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 [quote user="Pierre ZFP"]I have always had smoke detectors and CO2 detectors and would not feel fully comfortable without them (note to self: check/change the batteries)Whilst this is a sensible bit of legislation, how is it going to be policed?Will we be getting a knock on the door and some official demanding to see the detectors?Or will it just be a case of insurance companies not paying out in the event of a fire if they can show you didn't have a detector?If the latter then the Insurance Co must be rubbing their hands with glee[/quote]The new ones (linked) I am installing in France, next trip, Pierre, are mains with battery backup. Cheap as chips now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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