English

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]For ther is so gret diversite In Englissh and in writyng of oure tonge So pray I God that non myswrite the Ne the mysmetre for defaute of tongue: And red wherso thow be, or elles songe, That thow be understonde, God I biseche. ?[/quote]

Yes I know and it is Chaucer but that was 600 odd years ago and nearly 100 years before America had been discovered. It's not just the writing it is the changing of the English I know and of our history by the Americans. They changed the word gay to mean homosexual before WW2 which after the war 'drifted' across the pond. I quite like the word gay when it meant “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy” but it has become a word I can't use now. I do feel very strongly about America and Americans to the point that I won't even have them in the house, literally (we are always full) and for many reasons which include, as I see it, what they have done to my language. It's OK for us to evolve OUR langage but not for others and then to infect us with their changes.

PS. I also have a problem with texting.

[idun]

First time I went to the states, I took the kids on my own, my husband simply said he did not like americans and didn't want to come with us.

And then I wanted to do New England and said, 'are you coming or not'. He replied yes, if we can go to see the Plains of Abraham, Quebec, Canada, so my month away was now going to have a good week in Canada, and I had been and did not want to go back.

As it happened on the bridge at Niagra, after a week in Canada, and crossing back into the states, we both, at exactly the same time, gave a big sigh of relief, because we both like the USA and we liked the majority of the americans we met and were relieved to get the hell out of Canada. We would go back to the states and probably will one day.

I don't care that the americans speak english a little differently, I find, being from the NE of England that english people don't always speak the same english as me and mine!

[Chancer]

Just for you Quillan:

https://vimeo.com/36834599

[quote user="Quillan"]

[It's OK for us to evolve OUR langage but not for others and then to infect us with their changes.[/quote] But surely "OUR language" belongs to all those of us who were born in either Britain, its colonies or ex colonies Learning it as our mother tongue, to me that must include Americans, they are our descendants.

We all play our part in the evolution of the language including those we invite to emigrate to our country, those we have colonised and those we captured into slavery.

By what logic do you exclude the Americans?

Its understandable that the language will evolve differently in remote countries, we are but an island, I dont see the Americans trying to force their langauge on us, whenever they export products to the UK or other English countries they dont use American English in the names or packaging, one place I do find a problem is the French preferring to use American English teaching resources and hence the students being unaware of the différences but thats hardly the fault of the Americans.

[Gluestick]

A good friend of mine and close business colleague in the late 1970s, an international financier, was American, from Boston: Ivy League education, he went to Harvard and had lived in Paris, Switzerland (His wife Greek and a Professor at Zurich University) and then Piraeus and finally, London.

I once asked him why he had left America: "It is too full of err, Americans!" he replied.......... Mrs Gluey stated he was one of the most charming and courteous men she had ever met.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]For ther is so gret diversite

In Englissh and in writyng of oure tonge

So pray I God that non myswrite the

Ne the mysmetre for defaute of tongue:

And red wherso thow be, or elles songe,

 That thow be understonde, God I biseche.

?

[/quote]

However, Betty, that is Middle English.

For example, Piers Plowman is equally hard to comprehend.

What this mountaigne bymeneth and the merke dale

 

And the feld ful of folk, I shal yow faire shewe.

    

A lovely lady of leere in lynnen yclothed

    

Cam doun fom castel and called me faire,

    

And seide, "Sone, slepestow? Sestow this peple-

    

How bisie they ben aboute the maze?

    

The mooste partie of this peple that passeth on this erthe,

    

Have thei worship in this world, thei wilne no bettre;

    

Of oother hevene than here holde thei no tale'. -

I was afeed of hire face, theigh she faire weere,

And seide, " Mercy, madame, what this to mene?

Chaucer wrote (e.g.) Canterbury Tales in 1475 and Langland wrote Piers Plowman sometime between 1370 to 1390.

It must be remembered, before the Norman Invasion, the language of England was Anglo-Saxon. Norman French (rather different to French today!) was the legal and official language of Britain. Most educated people could speak and write Latin: indeed, Latin was the language of erudition, the Church, Law, Medicine, Science etc. Most people, however, could not write, nor could they read.

By 1609 Shakespeare's Sonnets were published.

Sonnet One:

FROM fairest creatures we desire increase,

That thereby beauty's rose might never die,

But as the riper should by time decease,

His tender heir might bear his memory:

But thou, contracted to thine own bright eyes,

Feed'st thy light'st flame with self-substantial fuel,

Making a famine where abundance lies,

Thyself thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel.

Thou that art now the world's fresh ornament

And only herald to the gaudy spring,

Within thine own bud buriest thy content

And, tender churl, makest waste in niggarding.

Pity the world, or else this glutton be,

To eat the world's due, by the grave and thee.

Not too incomprehensible by then............

Most interesting short analysis and explanation of English language here.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"] not just the writing it is the changing of the English I know and of our history by the Americans. They changed the word gay to mean homosexual before WW2 which after the war 'drifted' across the pond. I quite like the word gay when it meant “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy” but it has become a word I can't use now. [/quote] Tosh

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7289390.stm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

http://wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/gay

 

[Rabbie]

There is often a degree of misconception about Americanisms. Many people regard the use of "gotten" rather than "got" as a typical example but in fact this an old English usage that has survived  across the Atlantic. "Normalcy" is also originally English even  though it is regularly quoted as an Americanism.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

[quote user="Quillan"] not just the writing it is the changing of the English I know and of our history by the Americans. They changed the word gay to mean homosexual before WW2 which after the war 'drifted' across the pond. I quite like the word gay when it meant “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy” but it has become a word I can't use now. [/quote] Tosh

[/quote]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay (american website)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7289390.stm (Yes but it was the Americans that changed it's meaning in reference to homosexual)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay (American again but then you and others have said we shouldn't trust Wiki and that it is often wrong)

http://wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/gay (again American)

It was America that changed the meaning of the word although as you probably noticed when you read your links they do say it, for Americans, did mean what I said. Noel Coward picked up on it and used it in his play buy he also used it many times to express being happy and jolly.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Just for you Quillan:

https://vimeo.com/36834599

[quote user="Quillan"]

[It's OK for us to evolve OUR langage but not for others and then to infect us with their changes.[/quote] But surely "OUR language" belongs to all those of us who were born in either Britain, its colonies or ex colonies Learning it as our mother tongue, to me that must include Americans, they are our descendants.

We all play our part in the evolution of the language including those we invite to emigrate to our country, those we have colonised and those we captured into slavery.

By what logic do you exclude the Americans?

Its understandable that the language will evolve differently in remote countries, we are but an island, I dont see the Americans trying to force their langauge on us, whenever they export products to the UK or other English countries they dont use American English in the names or packaging, one place I do find a problem is the French preferring to use American English teaching resources and hence the students being unaware of the différences but thats hardly the fault of the Americans.

[/quote]

Your link implies I have a problem with homosexuals which I take offence at because I don't.

Americans are not English, they are multiracial coming from all over the world. There are places in America where English is the second language.

(spell checker gone south again sorry)

With the French using American English and reading how much De Gaulle loved the Americans I bet he would turn in his grave.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

There is often a degree of misconception about Americanisms. Many people regard the use of "gotten" rather than "got" as a typical example but in fact this an old English usage that has survived  across the Atlantic. "Normalcy" is also originally English even  though it is regularly quoted as an Americanism.

[/quote]

They also pronouce words differently.

This a good and often funny British - American dictionary

http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/british-american.htm

 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]

[quote user="Quillan"] not just the writing it is the changing of the English I know and of our history by the Americans. They changed the word gay to mean homosexual before WW2 which after the war 'drifted' across the pond. I quite like the word gay when it meant “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy” but it has become a word I can't use now. [/quote] Tosh

[/quote]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay (american website)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7289390.stm (Yes but it was the Americans that changed it's meaning in reference to homosexual)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay (American again but then you and others have said we shouldn't trust Wiki and that it is often wrong)

http://wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/gay (again American)

It was America that changed the meaning of the word although as you probably noticed when you read your links they do say it, for Americans, did mean what I said. Noel Coward picked up on it and used it in his play buy he also used it many times to express being happy and jolly.

[/quote] I repeat. tosh. Even your profound dislike of the Americans has forced you to accept that your original post was completely misinformed., viz. your mention of NoelCoward's use of the term. The fact that the links I provided show that your interpretation of the etymological origins is entirely erroneous does not make you correct simply because the websites are American. And I seem to notice that earlier in this very thread you yourself use Wikipedia as a source, so please don't use the "do as I say, not as I do" card. You aren't, and cannot be an expert on everything, Quillan. If you read the wordorigins website carefully, you will see references to John Payne's "Royall Exchange" written in the 16th century Edward Compton Mackenzie, And many of the other writers mentioned are British, and Noel Cowards use of gay to mean homosexual predates Your contention By at least 10 years. Even the OED (which I think even you will accept as British) clearly states that the term "gay" meaning homosexual has been established "since the 1960's" as the principal accepted meaning, so you've had at least 55 years to get over your disappointment....

[YCCMB]

Apologies for the seemingly random use of upper case letters in my post above. My iPad just declared UDI. Which is a bit gay.

[Quillan]

Betty, I am saying with regards to Noel Coward is that in the given time frame he used an American version of the word gay to mean homosexual after the Americans changed it's meaning. The date, if you read the links you gave, says it was used to commonly mean homosexual in the UK firstly in middle to late 20th century. I give a broad period because the dates conflict in the links so it is safer to say that it is somewhere within that period. He also used the word gay in his films and plays to mean “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”. They are American websites and do put their interpretation of how they see things which are different, as the BBC link shows that is different. Indeed even one of the American websites you gave refers to the fact that the BBC used gay to mean “joyful”. I am not saying I am an expert (just as no doubt are you) at all I am simply quoting what is in the links you gave. If you had not given them I would never have known. I was surprised you used Wiki as in the past you have said you didn't trust it. I am not 'having a go' just pointing out whats in the links.

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Apologies for the seemingly random use of upper case letters in my post above. My iPad just declared UDI. Which is a bit gay.[/quote]

It's screwing up the format as well. I have had to edit your posts that contain quotes.

[lindal1000]

I'm not sure you can blame the Americans for the changing use of English in the UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English

There's a new version of English out there that is home grown!

[Gluestick]

Most interestingly, there are absolutely no references whatsoever citing the word "Gay" in any Polari (q.v.) source reference I can find.

Bear in mind, the argot "Polari", was widely adopted in the 1960s, by homosexuals, as a lingua franca.

When I was in my teens, all the boys fantasized about a delightfully statuesque young blonde lady we knew called Gay: So I suppose that name is now out for girls, too.........

[YCCMB]

I do feel very strongly about America and Americans to the point that I won't even have them in the house, literally (we are always full) and for many reasons which include, as I see it, what they have done to my language.

Said Quillan.

In that case, and unless I have made a huge mistake, there are at least 4 people who have left reviews on your Tripadvisor entry which must, on their part or yours, be works of total fiction...?

[YCCMB]

Gluestick..I did not see your lengthy reply to my previous post with the Chaucer quotation. I fear you somewhat missed my point, which had nothing to do with the period per se and everything to do with the sentiment expressed in the text I quoted.

However, as you seem willing to use precisely the same arguments you decry regarding the evolution of living languages to make your point above, I am somewhat baffled as to why you earlier seemed to indicate that the absorption of language from other countries into English is, in your view, unacceptable.

Perhaps now it is MY turn to miss YOUR point?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I do feel very strongly about America and Americans to the point that I won't even have them in the house, literally (we are always full) and for many reasons which include, as I see it, what they have done to my language.

Said Quillan.

In that case, and unless I have made a huge mistake, there are at least 4 people who have left reviews on your Tripadvisor entry which must, on their part or yours, be works of total fiction...?[/quote]

Trip Adviser is indeed, mainly a work of total fiction..........

[Chancer]

You can still use gay (Gai(e)) in French for its original purpose Quillan.

My French ex said to me that I sounded gay on the phone one night, she  suspected  that I had been drinking.

One of my funniest memories was two French gays (not gais) talking about someone else saying that he was a real "poof", my ears pricked up and after hearing it said several times I had to ask what they meant as they were either using it out of context, it had a different meaning or they were a pair of hypocrites [:D]

My friend who had invited them was embarrassed by my asking, she said that une pouffe was something that you rest your feet on [:-))], bless her! I said I knew that but they were calling someone a poof or pouffe and they sure didnt mean a footstall, [8-)] she blushed and they told me that said person (who I'm guessing was also gay) was how could they put it, " a bit blonde" in the American sense.

I havn't dared to use the word myself as I havnt heard it since but it would be good to know if its generally known to heterosexuals as it would be a good insult to be used on certain occasions, a kand of put down.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]I do feel very strongly about America and Americans to the point that I won't even have them in the house, literally (we are always full) and for many reasons which include, as I see it, what they have done to my language. Said Quillan. In that case, and unless I have made a huge mistake, there are at least 4 people who have left reviews on your Tripadvisor entry which must, on their part or yours, be works of total fiction...?[/quote]

Trip Adviser is indeed, mainly a work of total fiction..........


[/quote]

Indeed although we don't cheat. The last two Americans were actually a Canadian couple and an English couple who lived in the US for a while after retirement. Two interesting groups are expats who emigrated to either South Africa or Australia in the 70's. To say the ones that stayed here were somewhat racist (especially after a glass or two) towards the indigenous population would be an understatement whilst those who are second, third or more generation are quite nice people and the ones we had never expressed racist views. Trying not to label all with the same brush I accept that these small samples may not be the norm but you can only go on personal experience. My experience of old Americans has been pretty bad resulting in one case of throwing a couple out two days into their seven day stay having insulted Mrs 'Q' to the point of making her cry (and thats not easy) and the French and Belgium guests to the point where the Americans were nearly physically assaulted and if on one occasion I was not holding somebody in their chair would have really happened and I am not joking. This is why we won't have them here anymore, not worth the trouble because you don't know what your going to get. Sad really because we have also had nice Americans in the past as well but thats life.

[WJT]

Perhaps the real story is that some Americans not all have high expectations in regards to accommodation. ;)

Americans from the south and Midwest in particular are some of the most polite people you will ever meet.

[Chancer]

It sounds like having guests of different nationalities sharing the same lounge space and dinner table with alcohol thrown in for good measure is sometimes a recipe for trouble.

I am so so glad that I decided early on to go for a completely different market than chambre d'hôte, I dont see or hear a peep from my customers from their first day to their last which can be several months, I hear the front door opening and shutting that is all.

One girl recently left after 6 months and we probably crossed paths 4 times during that period putting out the rubbish or when one of her taps blocked, in fact I see much more of here now when she pops in once a week to collect any mail.

I did a deal with the Aeronautique Lycée yesterday which should result in me having yearly rentals so even less contact and no cleaning or changeovers.

I am in the process of creating a laverie so maybe they will start fighting over their washing [:D]

[Quillan]

[quote user="WJT"]Perhaps the real story is that some Americans not all have high expectations in regards to accommodation. ;) Americans from the south and Midwest in particular are some of the most polite people you will ever meet.[/quote]

Believe me it was nothing to do with the accomodation more to do with French and Belgium being 'two faced, snivilling cowardly shites' plus a lot more abuse all to do with WW2 which the Americans of course won single handed as they did WW1 which is twice they have saved Europe and in particular Belgium and France. Not exactly nice breakfast and dinner table conversation especialy when you don't leave it alone but go on and on. It then went down hill from there. Mind you us British didn't do to well either. Margret Thatcher gave us all a free house and now (at the time they were here) in some parts of the UK we actually have running (cold) water and toilets in our houses finally. Their political leaning is best described in that is was mandatory for them to watch the only honest news show on the planet every night i.e. Fox News and whenever the President (Bush) was shown they would postrate themselves in front of the TV literaly. Would not have supprised me if they had KKK outfits in the luggage as well.

I was also at a dinner in London in 1984 when the American Ambassador Charles Price was guest speaker. Very inlightening as to how America saw the world and it's place in it. I did not leave feeling very impressed.

I have, I admit, met some very nice, warm and welcoming Americans but that was in my RAF days when I visited the US twice for short periods. I think however that was more down to being 'brothers in arms' and enjoyed my time with them very much.

[idun]

I have had an entertaining afternoon in the company of americans in America, discussing how they and their compatriots act abroad. They were fully aware that they do not act as they would at home, it was good to know that at least these people understood their own behaviour and could laugh about it.

What I can say is that those we met in Canada, well, they were so polite and full of excuses for the canadians. And when we were in Quebec, if they could have understood what they were saying about them, they, perhaps would not have been so gracious.