taxe fonciere on terrains constructible non baties

[idun]

Anyone see where people have received HUGE bills this year for this, one lady had been paying around 164€ for a parcel of land and this year there is an extra 6000€ to pay, which she has not got.

I realise that this is not happening everywhere, but happening it is. The sad thing is just because this is what the government thinks should happen, ie the land be built upon, or sold and built upon, does not necessarily mean that someone has the means to build upon it, or someone else wants it.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/impots/2014/10/14/05003-20141014ARTFIG00334-la-taxe-fonciere-des-terrains-constructibles-explosera-en-2015.php

[woolybanana]

To be fair, it is only being applied in a very small number of places where the shortage of housing is critical, apparently. But it could be applied more widely.

This legislation was thanks to Madame la Floche, a green misery and extreme leftie Housing minister who hates everyone and who is now linked to Norman's friend Melenchon

[NormanH]

Perfectly reasonable. The value of this land has shot up, so so should the taxes on it.  If people wish to hold tight to it instead of allowing it to be used  to create homes then they can expect to pay for the privilege.

[YCCMB]

I don't want to be confrontational, this is a genuine question. Why should this even be an issue? OK i can understand that it may be as Norman suggests in areas where there is a shortage of housing, but as far as I can see, there is plenty of available housing in many areas..witness the length of time it takes to sell many properties at what are not unreasonable prices..yet there appears to be a preference for buying land and constructing new builds. Maybe it would make more sense to encourage people to buy from the existing housing stock before building on every piece of available land? I can't see that it's purely a question of affordability. Lots of houses that are for sale are as cheap, if not cheaper than the cost of a new build.

[NormanH]

"Maybe it would make more sense to encourage people to buy from the

existing housing stock before building on every piece of available land?

I can't see that it's purely a question of affordability. Lots of

houses that are for sale are as cheap, if not cheaper than the cost of a

new build.

"

Quite right Betty., but this concerns  a relatively few people in:

Les 28 agglomérations concernées: Ajaccio, Annecy, Arles, Bastia,

Bayonne, Beauvais, Bordeaux, Draguignan, Fréjus, Genève-Annemasse,

Grenoble, La Rochelle, La Tesle-de-Buch-Arcachon, Lille, Lyon,

Marseille-Aix-en-Provence, Meaux, Menton-Monaco, Montpellier, Nantes,

Nice, Paris, Saint-Nazaire, Sète, Strasbourg, Thonon-les-Bains, Toulon

et Toulouse.

where the demand for housing greatly exceeds the offer.

Of course Le Figaro is no friend of the present Government so has highlighted this as if it were a great injustice which will affect everyone's taxe foncier.

Typical right wing press tactics of fear and rabble rousing I'm afraid

[woolybanana]

Punitive taxation on people's gardens or who have simply made provision for their old age or families. Forcing them to pay, in some cases, several thousand percentage rises in local taxes or to sell their land and garden and pay massive CGT and VAT.

The biggest landowners, the State and such as the SNCF have wriggled out of their obligation to sell off land and buildings (in Paris where there are hundreds they managed to part with 1 building), so they hit the small person who can't fight back.

And the opportunities that it gives mayors to reclassify land to suit their purposes is frightening.

[YCCMB]

I'm also somewhat surprised that there are so many people in France who want (or expect) to live and work in the are where they grew up, and aren't prepared to move further than a few minutes' commute from work, despite the fact that (IIRC) travel costs to work are tax-deductible.

For example, I see that in Norman's list La Rochelle and Bordeaux are both mentioned..yet I live 40 minutes from LR and an hour from Bordeaux and there must be hundreds, if not thousands of properties available on the routes I travel to get to either, far closer than where I live.

Crikey, I know of people who moved to my village from Royan, maybe 20-30 minutes away, and who tell me they never see their old friends because it's too far away for them to visit!

I also do a lot of work for a very large American company who have a network of French outlets. I recently did some language testing for them, on candidates for a position in France. The candidates came from the UK, USA and Canada, because although the position was in France and they wanted to promote a French candidate (and the salary was impressive) nobody would apply as they couldn't find anyone prepared to move within France.

[YCCMB]

Double post

[alittlebitfrench]

Just some points Betty.

You pay a lot less Nortaires fees on a new build and heating costs will be lower. For a young family a new build is much more affordable than a drafty old house that will probably need modernising. You will probably get better loan deals as well.

In the cities listed in the article the price per sq metre for houses is about 3000 - 4000 euros. So a small (probably run down) 100sq metre family home is going cost about 300,000 - 400,000 euros. The reason it is so high is because of lack of space and high demand. I dare say 400,000 will buy you a nice place in the Dordogne. Not a lot in real France.

Your suggestion that people should commute further is wrong. Common to popular expat belief, France is very congested and commuting into cities like Lyon, Marseille or wherever from remote villages will be a nightmare.

Lastly, the biggest proportion of buyers in the marketplace are families with children. Children need to be picked up from school and on Wednesdays at 11:30. A lot of people need to live near their families so they can look after them. Other than that you live near your place of work and school.

Don't look at France with your expat glasses on. It is really tough out there for families.

[Chancer]

Around here you have the phenomenon that a person absolutely must be able to be sat at his table with an apero in his hand while the wife serves him dinner within 5 minutes of leaving his workplace, its by far the most dangeroaus time of day or night to be on the roads.

If the job is further than that and they have to commute then the distance is not so important, they will get the train, drive, whatever, the boss has to pay for their lunches with ticket restaurants.

The above mentioned phenomenon leads to most PMU's either having the factory built behind the owners house or the owners house being built in the grounds of the factory, I kid you not there are scores like that, all a dreadfull compromise because of one persons obsession with their stomach.

Lots of people commute once a week leave their families at home and think nothing of renting an apartment to live in for only 4 maybe 5 nights a week, they are my customer base for 10 months of the year, even with somewhere as close accessible as Lille to me its cheaper for people to rent than pay the fuel and toll charges.

[idun]

I agree that commuting into french big towns and cities is a nightmare and plenty did commute from outlying areas into the local cities. I have friends who still do this and it is worse than it ever was. Several have taken to using the bus, as the services have improved a lot over the last two to three years. And with bus lanes, they get into work quicker.

Which is to say that people will commute and do do it. I know that some love new builds, but not 'everyone' does, I know enough young people who want somewhere older to put their own mark on it, AND they can afford the older places too, as often they are cheaper.

I have every confidence that Betty knows the 'real France' as well as anyone on here.

Where Chancer lives seems a very rum area indeed. Always looks pleasant when we have driven through, but apparently looks can be deceiving[Www]

[YCCMB]

Well, I've certainly never owned any expat glasses. ?

[NormanH]

Yes you have! Only yours are bilious green instead of pink ...

[YCCMB]

?

[alittlebitfrench]

Idun Wrote:

"I know that some love new builds, but not 'everyone' does, I know enough young people who want somewhere older to put their own mark on it, AND they can afford the older places too, as often they are cheaper"

If you watch French TV (I am sure you do) most programmes portray the same image of 'French living' ....modern houses/flats, modern lifestyle, large 'pièce à vivre' modern kitchen, nice terrace entertaining guests...blah blah blah....but it is all modern. Even in the days of 'une gars un fille' it was the same. This is France.

For some reason the British media think French living is living in old stoney houses, quaint villages, cookng on poeles, and keeping chickens. Living in France is not like that at all. I don't know anyone who wants to live like that. They want modern houses offering that idealistic lifestyle. Even my elderly inlaws and other relatives who grew up in sleepy hamlets do not want to live like that. If you go to that said hamlet now, there are plenty of old stone houses up for sale because everyone is building new houses. To create a modern lifestyle in a old house requires a lot of money and the skills of an architect. At whatever level of budget you have it is still far better to do it from scratch.

Going back to the other point, it is better to live with your kids in a 60 sq metre modern flat close to your work and amenities in a town/city than a 250 sq metre house with a 50 minute commute everyday from some village. Both cost the same. Some people do it of course, but most don't.

[idun]

Ah come on....... no idea where you live, but where I used to live and where my son and friends still live, I know exactly what it is like.

I'll not make a list of what my friends' kids have done with regards to purchasing, but most certainly NOT all spanking brand new buys. And one who 'built' has had loads of problems, good job his beau-pere was a builder and dad an electrician who both had to put many things right. I cannot say that the old houses bought were not done up to have modern interiors, because they have, doesn't stop them being 'old' houses though.

My old village had many commuters, not quite a village dortoir, but just about as time went by and we were the only brits in the village, believe that there are still no others. And we still know people who commute up to 60kms to get to work and one who does 70kms.

We lived in a city when we first moved to France and I still know french city dwellers, who do rather look down on those who live en plein campagne. And me, I shall never live in a village ever again, town living just suits me fine these days. Strangely for the very first time in my life.......... in an old house.

[alittlebitfrench]

What I am trying to say is that apart the 'cost difference' older houses don't really lend themselves well to the modern French way of living. Like what you see on TV and people today aspire to. That would partly explain why there is so much housing stock left on the market left unsold. It would also explain why expats who traditionally go for the older houses have so much difficulty selling and possibly only able to sell them back to other expats.

BTW I am very busy town/city type person and that is the way I like it. I did do rural for 6 years.

Opposite me (I am surrounded by houses) is a new build squeezed in between all the other houses. The land cost nearly 350,000 euros. The Build with a swimming pool must of cost over 1,000,000 euros. There is nothing at all special about where I live. There is a constant hum from the motorway with a busy junction 30 seconds away by car. When you can't here the motorway you can here the TGV. The hospital is just up the road and there are constant sirens. With that kind of budget they could have retired anywhere in France. I thought this was a one off, but another one has just been built on the opposite end of the street. Both modern archectural designs. Why here ?

[Pommier]

Our experience is the same as yours ALBF. Everyone here is moving into new, energy efficient houses.

As for people holding onto building plots, they've got a choice; sell it or build on it (or pay the higher taxes). It used to be a great retirement savings option, but with the higher TF the empty plots dotted around lotissements will soon be a thing of the past.