Is "Best Advice" best?

[New Life]

Hi,

Have been lurking in these forums for a couple of years now, whilst we have been doing our homework on finding our dream home in France. This is my first public outing…so please go easy on me!

At last, it looks like we have found it! A recently converted barn in Dept 87 which is nearly...but not quite completed…still leaving us having some finishing off to do.

We’ve visited it a few times during our last trip and having now agreed a price via the agent, we fly out again next week for a final visit and hope to complete the compromis de vente.

We are in the process of arranging a full survey to be carried out whilst we are there, and also a separate meeting with a builder to help cost out what works need finishing off. The agent is helping get copies of artisans guarantees, planning consents etc. So hopefully we are doing all the right things in the right order.

No doubt I’ll have loads of questions to ask very soon and become a regular participant here…but at this time I’d really appreciate peoples views on a most basic question I have regarding agents, notaires and best advice generally.

From my research thus far I gather that the following is quoted as being “best advice”:-

• Don’t go along merrily with everything the agent tells you.

• Consider taking independent legal advice via solicitor

• Engage your own Notaire (in addition to solicitor)

However, in practice, it appears to me that many, if not most people:-

• Work closely with the agent and place a high level of trust on their advice, often including preparing the compromis de vente.

• Don’t take / pay for independent legal advice – considered unnecessary

• Work with the same Notaire as the vendor – which prevents delays and having a less enthusiastic Notaire getting only half a fee.

In case it’s relevant, we are working with one of the large well respected (I believe) Anglo - French agents and thus far, we have been very impressed with what feels like the well balanced advice being given and have never felt rushed or pressured at all. Very happy indeed.

Therefore, my rather long-winded posting comes down to a simple question.

I’m inclined to go along with the second scenario I described above. Is this a reasonable risk to take and do most take it? What’s the norm?

Many thanks in advance.

[NormanH]

The English system is adversarial, with your solicitor working for you, and the seller's for the seller.

That is not the case with a Notaire, who is independent, and  in any case you as the buyer can name.

Solicitors as in England don't exist for property transactions in France, but English ones  have scented ££ in the property market in France  and prey on English uncertainty.

Most people don't even have a survey done, they rely on the compulsory 'expertise' which the seller pays for.

It seems to me you are well on the cautious side of the 'norm'.

I have bought 3 houses, and sold 2

[woolybanana]

if buying a partially completed property, you must check the quality of the work done, particularly if the work was done by a DIY'er or non-qualified and registered person. Otherwise you could end up with big bills for cleaning up the mess!

[New Life]

Thanks NormanH. I am comforted you consider us to be on the cautious side of the norm.

On one hand, we are really, really excited...but on the other, we are getting quite anxious the nearer we get to concluding a deal. I guess we're just looking for some reassurance.

Many thanks.

[New Life]

Hi Wooly,

Major works completed by French artisans and guarantees have been requested. Having surveyor on board hopefully flushes out anything obvious. I get the feeling the main risk area could be the electrics which were carried out by non-registered UK electrician...but getting this checked out too.

Thanks for your input.

[woolybanana]

yes, I have seen the flames resulting from a non-registered UK electrician who is now in gaol, so be ultra careful.

[LEO]

[quote user="New Life"]Hi,

Have been lurking in these forums for a couple of years now, whilst we have been doing our homework on finding our dream home in France. This is my first public outing…so please go easy on me!

At last, it looks like we have found it! A recently converted barn in Dept 87 which is nearly...but not quite completed…still leaving us having some finishing off to do.

We’ve visited it a few times during our last trip and having now agreed a price via the agent, we fly out again next week for a final visit and hope to complete the compromis de vente.

We are in the process of arranging a full survey to be carried out whilst we are there, and also a separate meeting with a builder to help cost out what works need finishing off. The agent is helping get copies of artisans guarantees, planning consents etc. So hopefully we are doing all the right things in the right order.

No doubt I’ll have loads of questions to ask very soon and become a regular participant here…but at this time I’d really appreciate peoples views on a most basic question I have regarding agents, notaires and best advice generally.

From my research thus far I gather that the following is quoted as being “best advice”:-

• Don’t go along merrily with everything the agent tells you.

• Consider taking independent legal advice via solicitor

• Engage your own Notaire (in addition to solicitor)

However, in practice, it appears to me that many, if not most people:-

• Work closely with the agent and place a high level of trust on their advice, often including preparing the compromis de vente.

• Don’t take / pay for independent legal advice – considered unnecessary

• Work with the same Notaire as the vendor – which prevents delays and having a less enthusiastic Notaire getting only half a fee.

In case it’s relevant, we are working with one of the large well respected (I believe) Anglo - French agents and thus far, we have been very impressed with what feels like the well balanced advice being given and have never felt rushed or pressured at all. Very happy indeed.

Therefore, my rather long-winded posting comes down to a simple question.

I’m inclined to go along with the second scenario I described above. Is this a reasonable risk to take and do most take it? What’s the norm?

Many thanks in advance.[/quote]

Hi,

Surely, your Survey result and quotation from the builder for works to be done, should have been sought , before you agree a price with the agent!

you said,

"Work closely with the agent and place a high level of trust on their advice"

What advice  has been given?

.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Dear New Life - Regarding the electrical installation in the property, you will find that the new diagnostic survey - obligatory and paid for by the vendor - now includes a lengthy (I have encountered 12 pages) and detailed report, room by room, of the electrical installation, which will give you a good idea of its condition. If it does not conform to norms you might then consider consulting a qualified electrician for an estimate of the cost to put it right, and possibly negotiate with the vendor on this point.

You are absolutely right to seek details of planning consents, artisans' guarantees and - if DIY work has been carried out - an expert view regarding its legality (such as the electrics noted above).

These things can and should be included in the 'compromis de vente' (pre-contract) as conditional clauses ('clauses suspensives'), on which the final decision to buy depends.

In France you buy a property - and sign a declaration to this effect - 'in the condition in which you find it' so you need to be absolute sure you are happy with your purchase.

All that said, I have worked in the property business here for nearly 10 years, including time with an agency, and in my experience the majority of sales go ahead without any problems, and the system benefits from a number of in-built protections for the buyer, such as those noted above.

P-D de R.

 

[Stan Streason]

Dont bother with an English "french specialist" solicitor.  Will cost you about £1,500 for not much.  I did a lot or research and pretty much understood the whole process but did have a second notaire who's english was better than mine just to ensure nothing was left to chance in understanding the language in the documents.  And for no extra cost as the fee was shared its about the best bargain I have had for years.

[darnsarf]

I know the subject of UK law firm vs Notaire has been raised many times before but I'd like to support the UK gunslinger/solicitor line. I should add that I'm not a Lawyer!

Maybe after a few times buying and selling in France one may become more confident or know more what to spot, but for my 1st buy there, I certainly didn't.

The virtual 'sold as seen' concept in France is a potential minefield, compared to the regs and processes carried out in the UK on a home sale. The Notaire is essentially there as a Government officer to collect the tax due. Whilst mine did offer advice and was generally helpful, I felt far more comfortable knowing a UK Solicitor (and qualified Avocat in France) was wholly responsible for guiding my part of the process. They explained what the Notaire did and more importantly didn't do, they checked validity of artisan guarantees, planning in the local area, route of a proposed by-pass, inheritance issues, CGT and the all important Clauses Suspensives. For example, they added a few carefully worded clauses which gave me the option of backing out if certain events changed prior to completion, without losing my deposit. Although a clause didn't specifically cover sudden exchange rate shifts (it's perfectly possible to see a drop of 20% over a month or two), there were some options there that would have given me the opportunity.

I speak OK-ish french and could gather what various artisans were telling me (pretty much) and was broadly able to read the documents (though I did use the UK lawyers to help understand the implications and translate a bit) but despite being (I think) about £3K lighter after using the UK lawyers,I consider it was very much worth the money.

I'm no wimp when it comes to high ticket items and contracts but it's just too easy to walk into a nightmare, with both sides smiling all the way in.. Definitely my own personal gunslinger for me!

[Will]

And there lies the dilemma. If you get a good legal advisor in a tricky transaction he can be worth the fee many times over. However, you never know if a transaction is going to sail through or get an attack of the hiccups until something starts to go wrong. And there are solicitors claiming to be experts in French property who are a total waste of space, all they achieve is prolonging the already-long process even further and winding everybody up. Even so, if people are seeking peace of mind then independent advice is well worth taking, because the French house buying system is so different from that which the buyers are used to in England.

Also, most agents are trustworthy and give good advice, contrary to the impression forums like this often give, where you only read of the bad ones. Remember that in France the agent is working for you, the buyer. Although they want to get their commission, a satisfied client is equally, if not more, important.

[darnsarf]

I agree . trouble is you don't often know it's going to be tricky until it's a bit too late. Donald Rumsfeld's "known, unknowns" come to mind.

Certainly not wishing to damn an entire profession at all but it strikes me that relying on an Agent (who is not necessarily working for you but possibly the Vendor) for certain kinds of advice and, in particular drafting of the CdV and other issues that need surely a legally trained professsional with knowledge of the Buyer's circumstances, seems a little too trusting to me.

[sid]

Welcome to the forum.

You might like to consider having a "matrimonial regime" clause added to your deeds, of course this depends on your current status. This ensures that in the event of the death of one of the couple the house passes to the other rather than to the family. We had this prepared in UK and cost around £250. When it came to completion day the notaire expressed surprise that we'd had it prepared this way and said he could have included it, probably at a cheaper price (he didn't know how much we paid). On reflection, it was much easier for us in UK at that time, understanding what it was all about. You'll have get up to speed in French in order follow much of what happens later and you have enough on your plate at the time!

We had no problems using the same notaire as the vendor, and as it turned out he spoke excellent English.

We didn't have a full survey but had a partial one to report on some obvious things I had noticed. Fissures in a barn wall, and a sagging barn roof, for example. When you've come from a relatively modern house in UK to a country farmhouse nearly 200 years old there are some major differences! [:)] The fissures as it turns out have been there for over 100 years and the roof has also "relaxed" with age! No problems with either of those.

Good luck with your "New Life"! [:)]

 

[Quillan]

If your French is not good then using a translator is better and cheaper than an English solicitor. English solicitors have no jurisdiction in France and can only offer advice and even then it depends how much French law they actually know and how up to date it is. This can also be true of French agents. When we bought our house the new 'cooling off' law had just come in to effect (shows how long ago that was) and the agent knew nothing of this. With the aid of this forum we were able to find and print off a copy of said law and present it to the agent. I have no idea if this was just the agent we dealt with or if at the time there was some confusion amongst agents in general and I can only speak from my own experiences.

On the issue of translators and agents the agent gave us a copy of an English translation of our contract. We then got it translated again by a professional translator (for about 40 Euros). What the agent didn't tell us was that if I and Mrs Q died our family had to carry on with the purchase. In fairness that was the only thing but it makes you wonder.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Regarding a French estate agent's 'advice', whether it is offered and how useful it is - One of the weaknesses of the French estate agency sector is the high turnover of staff (particularly in recent times) and the widespread use of self-employed negotiators with the staus of 'agent commercial'. As a result not everyone you encounter in an estate agency is experienced or has been in the business very long, and it is only with practice and experience of handling many transactions - all of which are different - that you learn what regulations or laws apply in a particular circumstance.

Regarding the death of the buyer(s) during the course of the transaction - a 'compromis de vente' signed and all the conditional clauses fulfilled - yes, in theory, the inheritors are held to the transaction. In practice this does not happen, most often for the simple reason that they do not have the funds to complete the purchase. In this situation, a wise vendor would want to cancel the sale and quickly find another buyer, as resolving the succession problem of the inheritors could take months, even years.

While English legal experts and translators can interpret and explain what is contained in the French documents, unless they are familiar - that is, in daily contact with buyers and sellers and have long practical experience of handling transactions - their usefulness is necessarily limited.

P-D de R.  

[Quillan]

[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

While English legal experts and translators can interpret and explain what is contained in the French documents, unless they are familiar - that is, in daily contact with buyers and sellers and have long practical experience of handling transactions - their usefulness is necessarily limited.

P-D de R.  

[/quote]

We actually used a French person who speaks perfect English (they teach it in France). What we wanted was a word for word translation of the document which is what we got.

[sid]

[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

(selected quote)  ...

...  While English legal experts and translators can interpret and explain what is contained in the French documents, unless they are familiar - that is, in daily contact with buyers and sellers and have long practical experience of handling transactions - their usefulness is necessarily limited.

 [/quote]

But if they ARE familier... and in the large cities it isn't difficult to find solicitors firms who have exactly this expertise, a department dealing with French property. In fact I was very impressed with the firm we used (in Manchester) and felt reassurred that we had understood the legal implications once discussed and explained in English. My only thought now, in hindsight, is that perhaps I could have acheived the same result with less fuss, visiting a Commissioner of Oaths etc, if we had asked the notaire.

It's easy to forget how overwhelming some of the problems which face newcomers can seem, especially when they all come at once. And it's also a help to be able to deal with some of them whilst still on home soil.

 

[NormanH]

[quote user="sid"][quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

(selected quote)  ...

...  While English legal experts and translators can interpret and explain what is contained in the French documents, unless they are familiar - that is, in daily contact with buyers and sellers and have long practical experience of handling transactions - their usefulness is necessarily limited.

 [/quote]

But if they ARE familier... and in the large cities it isn't difficult to find solicitors firms who have exactly this expertise, a department dealing with French property. In fact I was very impressed with the firm we used (in Manchester) and felt reassurred that we had understood the legal implications once discussed and explained in English. My only thought now, in hindsight, is that perhaps I could have acheived the same result with less fuss, visiting a Commissioner of Oaths etc, if we had asked the notaire.

It's easy to forget how overwhelming some of the problems which face newcomers can seem, especially when they all come at once. And it's also a help to be able to deal with some of them whilst still on home soil.

 

[/quote]

Exactly...by avoiding these parasites.

[Braco]

We also used a UK based Solicitor and was very pleased with the advice that we received.

A number of people seem to think that understanding the language either by being fluent or obtaining a translation is sufficient to enable them to grasp the intricacies of contract and property/tax law. I disagree.

A number may well have had enough experience to deal with all the issues. The trick is to know your strengths and your limitations.

If you do decide to take advice I suggest that the time to start is before you make an offer.

[NormanH]

Strange that the many French people who buy houses in France every year seem not to need a solicitor.

I have had a couple of discussions with my Notaire about my exact concerns and they were dealt with efficiently.

This was a 'free' service in that it was not billed as extra above the low fee.

[New Life]

WOW! Many thanks for the numerous and varied responses. Didn’t expect so many…so soon. A lot of great advice here which we will of course take on board.

Based on the various comments, I think we are inclined to a) continue working with our excellent agent, b) not engage a separate solicitor & c) choose our own English speaking notaire.

Of course, our independently commissioned surveyor, plus builder friends input will be very important in deciding if & how we proceed.

Many thanks for the warm welcome to the forum.

[PaulT]

I also requested that the Compris and Acte were emailed to me. I stuck these in to a couple of translation tools such as Google etc so that I understood what they contained.

We also used an English speaking Notaire - the Acte was signed at his office and around the table were us, the sellers and the agent all English and the owner of the agency and the sellers Notaire who olny spoke French. The signing was carried out all in English with the exception of our Notaire breaking off at times to explain to the 'foreigners' [:)] what had happened.

However, I would beware of any agent, especially in these financially troubled times - I may be doing them an injustice but at the end of the day they want their commission.

Paul

[pachapapa]

As to the electrics is the building served by a temporary construction provision or does it have a permanent connection?

[Will]

[quote user="PaulT"]

However, I would beware of any agent, especially in these financially troubled times - I may be doing them an injustice but at the end of the day they want their commission.

[/quote]

You are of course entitled to your own opinion. But I have to point out that I happen to be married to another user of this forum who, until very recently, was a salaried estate agent in France. She was not on commission, unlike many in her sort of job who are self-employed, and the bonus she received for achieving a sale was very small so there was no incentive to mislead clients in the hope of closing a sale. Satisfied customers who would recommend, and return to, the agency were far more important than a sale at any price. So not all agents should be tarred with that very broad brush.

Also, talk of 'seller's notaire' and 'our notaire' suggest you are applying the same thinking to the French house buying system as to the very different English system. Notaires are government officials, and when each party appoints a different one they merely share the duties and the fees - there is no obligation to check each other's work or promote one party's interest as an English conveyancing lawyer would. Despite that, many notaires do go out of their way to accommodate foreigners with little experience of property transactions in France. And the word is 'compromis'.

[New Life]

[quote user="pachapapa"]As to the electrics is the building served by a temporary construction provision or does it have a permanent connection?[/quote]

Thanks Pachapapa. This point has already been flagged up by our agent who is checking it out.

The CdeV will be conditional on either a) confirmation of a permanent & compliant connection...or b) report from french electrician confirming any costs to make compliant and complete proper connection. (We can then decide if we need to adjust price accordingly)

Will the diagnostic report flag up this issue?

Thanks