Why Move to France ?

[EuroTrash]

"the point is, I have (and happily admit) that I have got the whole 'expat' (lets say British but I think it is the same regardless of nationality) moving to France thing wrong"

The thing you got wrong, is thinking that all expats have the same priorities, like and dislike the same things, and come here for the same reasons. And it seems like you're still getting it wrong :-)

The motivation of say 80 per cent of the population does not compute with the other 20 per cent and never will. Why do you find that surprising? You know what's right for ALBF. I know what's right for me. I also know that what's right for ALBF would not be right for me at all. One man's meat is another man's poison, as the saying goes, and it's very true. I live in functioning France but not prosperous France; that is not France-related, that is me-related; I never liked the smell of moneyed Middle England either. The price of property wasn't part of my reason for moving to France. The reason was in fact because I love France. I worked here for a year as a student and it was a life-changing year, I felt totally bien dans ma peau here and decided there and then that I wanted to live here. I was in a hall of residence for that year and had no clue, at the time, how much property cost either here or in the UK. In the end it took me half a lifetime to get round to it because life got in the way. I paid around a tenth of ALBF's quoted prices for my house, no renovation required, ready to move in, it's small and perfectly formed and it suits me perfectly. I'm sure ALBF would not like it and I am equally sure that I would not like ALBF's pad.

As for trying to give more focused advice on forums, hmm, to me focused advice sounds too much like trying to tell people how to live their lives. If folk ask for facts give them facts, if they ask for opinions give them opinions, but isn't it a bit presumptuous to go making value judgements on other people's values, priorities, preferences, decisions and motivation? Just because they don't see things as you see them, doesn't mean they're wrong. Facts are right or wrong, not priorities and motivation and preferences.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET, when I speak my nonsense I am talking about families in France and cross referencing that towards the expectations of expat families wishing to move to France.

I am talking about my situation, our family (same age) and friends. We are a typical cross section of french society. We are luckily enough to be on the property ladder (although the house is owned by the bank) but others we know are unable to get on that ladder, regardless if they have an adequate income to do so. Forgive me if I am wrong, but did you not buy a house in France without a mortgage ? If that is the case, I guess you own it.

When you factor cost of living, bringing up kids, salary, mortgage, pensions, I am actually talking sense. You are missing the point regarding the link between jobs, career, salary and location.

Like I said, all things being equal the price of property is relatively the same in France as the UK.

I am happy for you to prove me wrong.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Gluey said:

"The huge differential between crazy UK house prices and French house prices"

That is the biggest myth about France. That is where those moving to France make such a mistake and will continue to do so.

Houses in 'mainstream' France are as expensive as the UK. In rural France, the houses appear cheap but they are not cheap relative to salaries and the cost of living.

I have made that point so many times. If you want to move to France and live in 'prosperous functioning France' you need at least a budget of at 350,000-400,000 euros for a half decent place.

If you buy a cheap property and do it up you may not be able to sell. For me, that is a very expensive property.[/quote]

Remember, ALBF, the time I was recalling - which was the period of the biggest migration to France - the Pound sat at 1.71++ to the Euro.

Which meant many people could sell up in UK, pay off their mortgage and buy a French house with NO MORTGAGE and capital remaining.

For example, a close friend purchased a farm house not far from us, just circa 30 minutes further inland. Much of the conversion done and very liveable in. Full rewire, gas central heating; loads of land and some great dependences. Big ones. 1999 cash €90,000. Pounds then = £53,000.

Where most invariably went wrong, was spending their capital too fast with no plan to cover living expenses; plus, spending far too much on improvements and renovations.

[EuroTrash]

"You are missing the point regarding the link between jobs, career, salary and location. "

Perhaps I seem to be, but I think you're over-obsessed by it, because I think that, in general, the many many people in the UK for whom job-career-salary-bringing up kids are priorities, and who are happy with that lifestyle, are not the ones who move to France.

Yes there are people who think that moving to rural France is an easy way of escaping the rat race. Personally I don't think it is, but a lot try and some seem to make it work.

But I don't think many people decide they want to exchange the rat race in the UK with the rat race in France. What would be the point?

For a lot of Brits, the appeal of France is that it offers more choices and more scope not to live the lifestyle that the typical cross section of French and British society live. And I think they're right, it does.

I have no interest in trying to prove you wrong, I agree you're talking sense as far as it goes. I just think what you're saying happens to be beside the point because it's irrelevant to most Brits who want to move to France. The situation you and your friends are in, is not their expectation. Either that's exactly what they have in the UK and they don't want it any more, or they never were that sort of person in the first place. They're looking for something outside your box, that's the whole point. They don't want to know about your box.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET said:

"For a lot of Brits, the appeal of France is that it offers more choices and more scope not to live the lifestyle that the typical cross section of French and British society live. And I think they're right, it does"

I totally agree with that point. I think that is where British and French culture is different so far as the British are more willing to take risks and certainly more imaginative and resilient in achieving their goals. When you have grown up in France (or sort of grown up in France') that kinda attitude to do something different is frowned upon.

With reference to your point 'the situation you and your friends are in'. It is not a question of the 'situation we are in', the situation we are in is no different to the situation people are in living in the UK. This is reality. That is France.

It is either you play by the system and rules or you don't. It takes a bold man to try and break the rules of France.

[EuroTrash]

"With reference to your point 'the situation you and your friends are in'. It is not a question of the 'situation we are in', the situation is reality. That is France.

It is either you play by the system and rules or you don't It takes a bold man to try and break the rules of France. "

That's where we disagree because, simply, it contradicts what I experience first hand every day.

You see I am not a bold person at all. I'm basically an easy-going person and I go out of my way never to make waves or upset anybody or draw attention to myself. But according to you, I am boldly breaking the rules of France. Yet the neighbours talk to me, the mayor talks to me, my (French) clients and work colleagues exchange smiley faces with me in emails, and the friends I made as a student and on my travels still associate with me, so there was me thinking my lifestyle must be acceptable here. Funnily enough not all the friends from my student days live your lifestyle either, yet they're French; one married a goat farmer and helps him to make artisan cheese, and they're pillars of their community. And yet you say that there is only one set of rules in France and only one acceptable lifestyle. Confusing. Presumably you are aware that French goat farmers exist, you may even eat their cheese, and presumably you realise that they are not in the situation you are in, so please explain how they fit into reality France?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]That is France.

It is either you play by the system and rules or you don't. It takes a bold man to try and break the rules of France.[/quote]

You are really now, ALBF, having a larf!

[:D]

In rural areas, everyone and his wife has a little earner on the black!

In Provence it is far worse!

Symbiosis for survival.

Obviously, in major towns and cities for salary men and women, then the chances and opportunities are far less or non-existent.

In our little Commune, population circa 120, it is rife: even amongst the many who work for a major French company (the major local employer).

[mint]

ET, your last 3 posts resonate with exactly what I think.

Well, yes, there are some of us live-and-let-live ones and we do what suits us and live the life we feel comfortable and happy with and don't pay much notice to what other people do.  There is no sort of "template" on how to live your life in France, no degree of "Frenchness" to be worked towards.

For me, the beauty of living in France is that I do just what suits me and OH and my beautiful dog and that, on the whole, goes really well.

We lived in a beautiful, art deco house on a heritage coast in the UK; lots of friends, plenty of disposable income, someone to do the cleaning, my personal trainer, eat out or eat in whenever we wanted.........life was a breeze.

Here we live VERY simply, eat and drink like French peasants, now not able to go very far (for various reasons) and everyday feels just fine. 

And, no, we didn't come because houses were cheap.  We bought our first house without selling our UK house, just to suss the French adventure out first.  We also bought our second house without selling the first, just to make sure we do like the new environment before leaving our previous village with all our lovely friends and interesting neighbours.

[EuroTrash]

Thank you for the moral support, mint!

ALBF was making me start wondering if I've been living a delusion for the last 10 years.

[alittlebitfrench]

Well that brings us full circle in this debate.

I guess if you have the financial power of selling a house in the UK and buying a property outright in France then you have the opportunity to live differently in France. So reality is not important. Which is fine. It would be nice however for some to recognise the hardship that your French compatriots have to endure rather dismissing it. I am not surprised when I read about the tensions in expat villages in France.

It does beg the question of why expats are so interested in French politics.

Mint, you bought a second house in France without selling the house you were living in. So when you came to sell the first house you had to pay CGT I guess. Not many people can do that.

[andyh4]

ALBF

I don't recollect anyone here saying that they did not recognise the difficulties of ordinary working families. I think you will find that most of us have been part of the difficulties - albeit maybe not in France.

I am personally only too aware that my pension makes our income in France significantly above the average declared income for our commune. Mind you, that is declared income and as already posted their is an amount of mutual aid, where no cash changes hands. Why are we interested in French politics?

1. At a personal level it impacts on our lives.

2. It impacts on the lives of our neighbours and friends.

Despite what you seem to believe of expats, we do not live in a vacuum surrounded by "Froggies" who we neither understand (in all senses) nor care about.

Maybe that does not apply everywhere, but chez nous it does.

[lindal1000]

I agree Andy. It's rather disingenuous to suggest that all immigrants don't care about the country that that are living in and the life of French people. It is not just people from the UK that find themselves in the position of having large sums of money tied up in properties that they no longer wish to live in. The latest immigrants to our hamlet are from Paris and Belgium, who have done exactly that; sold or rented out their existing properties and taken advantage of cheaper costs of living elsewhere.

[EuroTrash]

So although ALBF declined to answer my question on how French farmers fit into his perception reality, he does recognise that in fact there are opportunities to live differently in France. Perhaps he recognises that it's not only Brits who live differently - there are also French smallholders, French playboys, French eccentrics - in fact as a nation the French do eccentric rather well.

But he still thinks that none of it can be real, because it's not how he lives.

So another question: how would you define "real", ALBF? because I think maybe you're simply using the wrong word here. If you replace "real" by "conventional" or "standard" or "ordinary" then I wouldn't disagree with you. Other lifestyles could be called "unconventional" or "non-standard" or whatever word you use, there's nothing ridiculous about that. But, saying that great swathes of France, the people that live there, the activity that goes on there and the money that changes hands there, are all "unreal", is clearly ridiculous. Many French people live their entire lives in the country, working on the land, living on the family farm with no mortgage to pay - does that mean that in spite of having birth certificates, marriage certificates, social security records, bank accounts, eventually a death certificate, these people were never real, they never existed? What about all the tyre-burning demonstrations and escargot road blocks, aren't they real either because they're carried out by non-real people ;-) ?

[mint]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] So when you came to sell the first house you had to pay CGT I guess. Not many people can do that.[/quote]

Well, no, we didn't make any profit[:)]

In fact, we gave lots of furniture, including ride-on mower, ovens, fridge, etc etc to the buyers who were very young and who had very little in the way of furniture as it was their first house.

The notaire estimated what we left to be worth 10k euros. 

We were downsizing and had more than enough to fill our present house.  We were very happy to get the old house up-and-running for the young couple.  Their happiness was payment enough for us.

 

It might be a cliché but it was really a win-win situation.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ ET

Real France is no different to real UK. You go to school, get an education, find a job, have a career, get a mortgage, buy a house, have kids, get a pension and then retire.

Whether you are a farmer, work in Speedy, work in La Defense, or you are the French version of Shaking Stevens. It's the bloôdy same. The only difference is that in France one could argue that it is more difficult than the UK.

Whatever you do mindyou you still have to conform. You still have to pay tax and follow a certain path.

Buying a house is probably the expensive purchase that one makes in their lives. The perception that houses are cheeper in France is wrong when you take into consideration cost of living and salary. Property appears cheeper to (lets say British expats) but it is not the 'reality'. Please prove me wrong on that point.

So yes, British expats moving to France and buying a property outright are bypassing all the trials and tribulations that French folk have to go through to be in the same position. The difference being that life will catch up on expats if they need to find a job to support themselves.

We (just for fun) budgeted a move to somewhere like Sarlet. We can sell our house and buy outright a nice pad and have money in the bank. But we reckon to compensate for higher living costs, lower salary, bring up kids and everything else with living in Sarlet, that we would need a cushion of about 500,000 euros to be safe. How expat families expect to survive is beyond me.

I notice that if you type 'French property' into google and scroll down to the bottom to see related popular searches, people are searching for 'bargain French property'; 'French houses to buy under 50,000 euros' 'Legett (Insert French spit) houses for sale.

In Paris 50,000 euros will buy 5 sq metres. In Lyon probably 10 sq metres.

@ Minty

You own two houses in France. If you sell the one you don't live in you have to pay CGT which I think is 27%. So if you sell house two you are throwing away 44,000 euros if the house is worth lets say 200,000. Not many people can afford to do that. Well, not in my circles.

[EuroTrash]

Er, but you only pay tax on the PROFIT, not the full price you get ! The clue is in the cGt, G=gains, or Pv, P=plus.

So basically, by "real" you do in fact mean "conformist" or "conventional". Not everybody has to do that, not in any country. Some lucky sods have private incomes and don't need to do a stroke of work. Some drop out and never pay a penny income tax in their lives. Some people are gay. Gay or straight, getting married is optional. Having kids is optional (or sometimes, not even an option). Personally I never fancied doing the 2.5 kids thing. I felt no obligation to help populate the world because there are plenty of other people doing that, plus I was far too selfish and I simply didn't want to spend my life that way. So you see, life is full of choices.

If people realise they have choices and choose to conform because that's what they want, that's fine. But to feel you have to get married and have kids and wage-slave for the next 20 year because there is no other option, is very sad IMHO. Life's for doing what makes you happy, within reason and as long as in doing so you don't make anyone else miserable. Otherwise, what's the point in anything?

[alittlebitfrench]

Hmmm.

I like the idea of not conforming and doing things differently. But is France the right country to do that ? Hmmm

Like I said earlier in the thread I get now why expats move to France in the way that they do. Not saying its right not saying its wrong. Making it work mind you in country that is populated by conformists and in a system that has been designed to make everyone conform, well that is a different matter. Risky.

Now ET, you must thank us conformists for vacating rural France in order to find work in cities otherwise house prices would be a tad more expensive than they are now. You may have never been able to realise your dream of being non conformist in France.

But having said that, are you not being a 'conformist' expat by moving to 'Normandy' in rural France to buy a cheap property ? Rural Normandy is quite a magnet British expats doing the same. If you were a proper nonconformist you would have moved to rural vosges. Or was that to expensive ?

Everyone conforms one way or another.

[Chancer]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]If people realise they have choices and choose to conform because that's what they want, that's fine. But to feel you have to get married and have kids and wage-slave for the next 20 year because there is no other option, is very sad IMHO. Life's for doing what makes you happy, within reason and as long as in doing so you don't make anyone else miserable. Otherwise, what's the point in anything?[/quote]

 

Unfortunately ALBF has only recently worked it out, 20 years too late in his case.

 

But for French forums he would perhaps still be blissfull in his ignorance, at least they give him an outlet for his frustration.

 

Editted, your posting ALBF crossed mine, yes I get exactly your point.

[idun]

Of anyone in this thread, I still understand ALBF the most, I suppose because of the time in life that we moved to France and consequent lives.

And I shall never ever get anyone over a certain age, who moves to some remote part of France with next to no french and a drive for provisions, never mind needing medical attention and hospitals or any other help. As it isn't like the locals who have always lived there, or even french people, as they speak french.

And I was firmly put off moving to regions so beloved of many when moving to France, by the french themselves. And the french themselves who I knew, and from those regions, saying how dire it was, nothing there etc etc. When bread has to be put on the table, a good view, is not an essential and cheap property, well, yeah, who would want to stay.

And we once stayed in Ernee in mid summer as a convenient place to meet with friends on holiday from the UK. The town was literally full of mamies and papies with the grandchildren, all french, holidaying away from the bit cities, rare was the french adult, and some  brits. Maybe the locals were also away, I never asked, but it was relatively dead in mid summer, and I know from my own village that winter was never the time of year when our village came to life.

[EuroTrash]

"I shall never ever get anyone over a certain age, who moves to some remote part of France with next to no french and a drive for provisions, never mind needing medical attention and hospitals or any other help."

I totally agree with you there. I don't understand how you can expect to be happy if you make life inconvenient for yourself and don't know what's going on around you. Yet people do it, there's nowt so queer as folks.

"But having said that, are you not being a 'conformist' expat by moving to 'Normandy' in rural France to buy a cheap property ? Rural Normandy is quite a magnet British expats doing the same. If you were a proper nonconformist you would have moved to rural vosges. Or was that to expensive ? "

Who said I lived rural? I live two minutes' walk from the town centre. The municipal Christmas illuminations stop just inches from my front door - if I lived 2 doors down I'd have a big Christmas star twinkling right outside my bedroom window :-)

I chose Normandy because having spent 2 to 3 months a year over a period of several years travelling pretty much all over France in my motorhome, and taking seasonal jobs in different places when the opportunity arose, on balance Normandy was the area that did it for me more than any other. I felt at home here, I love the colombage building style, I found the locals friendly. They grow apples and potatoes and make cheese and those are all things I understand. I worked in the south for a summer but it felt too alien, vines and winemaking are a mystery to me and they eat things I'm not familiar with. I love it as a holiday destination but it didn't feel like it could ever be home. I find mountains bleak and a bit scary, I can't relax, so the Vosges as a region held no appeal, in fact I don't remember ever even going there. Having chosen Normandy I wanted to rent somewhere, buying was not my original plan since I have no héritiers to leave property to, in fact it's taxing my brain just at present to think what to do with it in my will. But renting turned out to be a lot of hassle, and I happened to stumble across a little house for sale that I fell in love with, so that's how it happened.

You're saying I'm a non-conforming non-conformist :-) But people often end up in the same place having arrived by different routes and for different reasons. As long as they're happy with where they are, does it matter how or why they got there?

[mint]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Life's for doing what makes you happy, within reason and as long as in doing so you don't make anyone else miserable. Otherwise, what's the point in anything?[/quote]

ET, that describes it for me![:)]  If I didn't like something, I'd change it, even if I have to give up something in exchange for it.  After all, everything's a trade-off.

If I were as young, as sassy and as self-reliant as you, ET, I'd like to have a go at doing what you do!

Now I've promised myself that I am not going to get exasperated by views different to my own, so I shall contain myself............ha, ha, ha!

ALBF, it appears to me that you either despise expats (as you call them but it's not necessarily what they'd call themselves) or you envy them.  Well, which is it?  If you told me, I could certainly construct a scenario to balance out your view and make you feel better about things!  Undoubtedly, I used to be noted for having my own "angle" on affairs............so just tell it to me as you feel or think it!

As for id and you, ALBF, talking about things being "dead", has it occurred to you that some of us like things "dead"?  Mais, oui............look, it's a dreary November day here, I have been unable to go out because of the pain from my busted rib, I am hardly able to pick up anything heavier than a very small whatever without using both hands and bracing myself to get the stab of pain in my ribs and I don't suppose there is much out there going on in my little village, but I LOVE it like this! 

Can't think of driving, can't go out on the Tuesday nordic walk, have nothing else pressing or particularly amusing to do and hey............bliss, peace, laziness, WONDERFUL!

As for Normandy, I love Normandy and found lots of little towns I would have happily lived in EXCEPT I couldn't stand the cold!  Yes, I did spend several days there in winter and decided that, with my asthma, I needed to be somewhere less cold.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Minty.

Now now now Minty, I don't despise anyone and that includes British expats. It is not in my nature. So put your handbag down........again. Seriously, you are going to wear it out.

BTW, I have never said the Dordogne was dead. I am sure there are lots of things to do.....especially if you have a satellite dish pointing 28° East of South.

[Chancer]

If I didn't like something, I'd change it, even if I have to give up something in exchange for it.  After all, everything's a trade-off.

 

There you have the answer Mint, ALBF cannot, or at least he is not willing to give up all that he thinks he has to do so.

 

Classic mid life crisis, I had mine at exactly the same age, I stepped off of the ride and have never regretted it, in fact the only things I do regret are the things I wasnt brave enough to chance.

[alittlebitfrench]

Midlife crisis Chancer..........n'importe' quoi. I think troll was more of an adequate analysis.

You lot just mildly amuse me that is all. Tee hee.

When I start threads about liveboxes, humex boxes, posting a letter in France, selling my car or just photographing a bolt that I found in my garden and asking what it is called....then yeah that is midlife crisis territory. When I do that, please shoot me.

[mint]

Mid life crisis, what is that, please?

Now I feel hard done by because I don't remember having one of those?  What have I missed out on?

What age exactly do you have to be to experience one?

ALBF, contrary to what you assume, I do NOT want to batter you, not with my handbag or even with my rucksack (which is what I'd normally have).

Didn't I tell you to say what it is that is bothering you about expats or anyone else and I almost guarantee that I will have something to say to make you feel better?

Life and its problems and blessings, you just need to take it as it comes  Nothing is guaranteed.  Make your choice, then it's put up or shut up.