The blocade season has started

[woolybanana]

This time it is farmers who are blocading some oil refineries because they want the French Govt, via Total not to import so much palm oil but to favour their colza and other oils for making petrol, though the local stuff is much more expensive to produce.

Of course damage to the environment in producer countries has not been mentioned.

Oh, and roundup has not been banned in the end, as one sort of expected.

No need to panic yet as there seem to be plenty of oil and petrol reserves. Just keep your tank topped up.

[Harnser]

Palm oil and rape seed oil (colza) are not used to produce petrol, they are used as the feedstock to produce biodiesel.

[woolybanana]

Quite right Harsner, just checking to see if everyone is awake.?

[lindal1000]

I think some of it is used to produce biodiesel. I'm with the protesters on this one. Palm oil production on the scale that is being carried out at the moment, is responsible for the destruction of one the most biodiverse ecosystems in the world, the extermination of species of animals, especially some of the great apes, and the eviction of many indigenous people from their land and livelihood, that has sustained them for centuries..no one should be buying it, although it is difficult to avoid as it is in most processed foods.

[YCCMB]

And, sadly, difficult to replace. Son#2 did his dissertation on finding technical replacements for palm oil, on behalf of his then employer who were extremely keen to move away from using it.

[woolybanana]

Linda, quite agree, but Total have just opened a refinery to produce biofuels which will require hundreds of thousands of tons of oils per year, a large part of which of which will be imported palm oil. It is significantly cheaper than locally produced colza or whatever so the producers are blocading. They reckon they should be favoured over imported oils as, otherwise, they will have to take huge areas of land out of production.

In other words, the reasons for the strike are, at heart, about money in farmer’s pockets, from taxpayers of course. Any interest in the environment of the producer countries is entirely ancilliary.

[lindal1000]

Maybe it is all about money for the farmers but on this I don't blame them either. It's crazy to import palm oil from halfway around the world and it's crazy for farmers to have to take out hectares of land just for Total to keep process low. Farmers barely make a living anyway..the average pension of a farmer, after however many semesters you need for a full pension, is 600 euros a month..We may have to pay more for fuel.

[woolybanana]

Take out the farmers, get costs down, surely? This has been happening very slowly in places like the Vendée but needs to be speeded up. Farmers cannot go on being charity cases indefinitely, living off the backs of the taxpayer, nor can the rail workers or Air France.

[Patf]

Linda wrote "Farmers barely make a living anyway." My opinion too, from the experience of living in the Gers.

I just knew you would have to come back on that Wooly. So the farmers are rich where you live?

And as for "the blockade season has started" -

Before we left France, ?Jan. 2018, the Gers farmers were blockading the main routes to protest against their inclusion in the Pyreneen zone in which it's impossible to grow cereals (exempt from subsidies.)

I don't know if they won or not.

[woolybanana]

Most of the poor, subsistence farmers of which there were many round here seem to have gone, replaced by spuds, carrots, sugar beet and gites in very big fields.

Oh, and strawberries which are a big crop round here.

Example of enterprise: most spuds grown here go to Belgium for processong into chips, but one local farmer has set up his own chipping operation and supplies local markets like Le Touquet. He has also restored a great maison de maitre as a gite, with some grant help, top of the range into which he will retire in a good few years time.

But it took two generations to get to this point. His son will succeed him. It was started by grandfather who came from real poverty farming in Flanders, after the 2WW, got a bit of of land, built the farm, more land as it became available, now carried on by his son.

[Patf]

Perhaps the farmers down south are slower to catch on to modern developments.

During our 16 years there I did notice that as the older generation retire or die the sons and daughters either escape to the cities, or try to catch up with the new demands of farming.

[YCCMB]

Our farming neighbours farm about 250 hectares. The parents, who inherited from Grandad (who has died since we moved in..,no connection!) farmed with their son and one labourer. Then dad "retired" as in, he took his pension but was still working hard on the farm. A few years after his 60th birthday, two years ago, he dropped dead of a massive heart attack whilst dancing with his wife at the village fete. Within a few months, the labourer left. Now their son and his wife have sole responsibility for the farm, helped by their own 19-year-old son, during his holidays from agricultural college. They farm a variety of crops and have beef cattle. I don't think they have a particularly easy time, nor that they're especially well off. I wouldn't want their life.

[lindal1000]

That pretty much describes most farmers round here Betty. The land is not suitable for large scale operations, with the exception of some vingnobles. We have noticed that in recent years the smaller grape growers have sold out to a couple of large producers, but there are still several who grow their own grapes, produce their own wine and sell locally. Some sell it direct to the local cooperative. The rest are mixed beef/dairy (very few of them left) and crop farmers. They work all the hours under the sun and never take a holiday.

[richard51]

Oh, come on.

Bettys neighbour has over 600 acres probably worth greater than 1 million euros just for the land alone. Not a bad inheritance, especially when a good business with all its breaks are thrown in. 600 acres isn't small.

OK some young are perhaps cutting and running but land does tend to stay in the family for many generations - and there is a very good reason for that.

NB based on 1 hectare equals 4,000 euros (varied between 3 and 17 thousand euros in france in 2016)

[woolybanana]

Many farmers do not own more than a small part of what they farm, the rest being owned by absentee owners of all kinds.

When land does come up for sale it is snapped up though not necessarily by the people farming it. Good quality land sells for a premium which may well put it out of range of the actual farmer.

That being said, there was a big consolidation in the Vendée with wealthy farmers grabbing every hectare that they could.

Richard, are you criticizing the young for quitting that awful drudgery and imprisonment of farming? Personally, I applaud them.

[YCCMB]

If you've got a parcel of land, it's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. Like a house, or a car or any other material goods. Who would buy 250 hectares of land? Another farmer, maybe. More likely dozens of other farmers. If they had the disposable income to do so, or if they had a sympathetic bank manager (oxymoron). It's designated agricultural land so it's not as if it's going to be available for development, even if anyone wanted to develop it.

What you can't do is just leave it fallow and say "well, I'm sitting on a million quid in assets so I never need to work again".

Certainly in my neck of the woods, I see no evidence of cash-rich farmers.

What a bizarre observation.

[richard51]

https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property_market/agriculture_farmland_prices_2016/

If somebody doesn't want to continue farming then they can put it on the market to sell or rent it out to tenant farmers perhaps.

Its a bit like inheriting a house but with more perks, As I said with property and with a job thrown in - with a 9% overall unemployment rate and more in the countryside that can't be bad. Probably why so many don't move on.

I dont think farmers will rush to show you their cash btw.

NB in terms of your oxymoron - I'm sure there would be lots of sympathetic bank managers if the client had substantial capital - that is how the western world operates.

[YCCMB]

I don't even know why I'm answering this, but anyway. What your link states is that 20% of the 2% (or 0.4% , if you prefer) of agricultural land that changes hands goes to non-agricultural buyers. So 1.6% of France's total agricultural land changes hands among farmers each year.

Why don't people move on? To do what? If you've been driving a tractor since you could reach the pedals, there aren't a million job opportunities, least of all when there's high unemployment and your only experience and qualifications are a lifetime (literally) in agriculture.

If you inherit a house, you can choose to live in it or sell it or rent it. If you have farmland, you can choose to sell it or rent it, but if you can't easily do either, and you don't have another income stream, what are you supposed to do? As you point out, with 9% unemployment.....

As for sitting on a million pound/euros worth of land....well, convert that into cash when you're 40 and unemployed, subtract the taxes and living costs, budget for the fact that you're a family of four and you've just kissed your pension goodbye, and suddenly a million doesn't really seem that great. In fact, taking no account of taxes, inflation or other factors, that could mean an annual salary of under €4K a year above SMIC. Plus, unless you keep the farmhouse (and opt to live in the midst of a farm that now isn't yours) you'll also need to move house.

As it happens, I have very close friends who are farmers, both in France and the U.K. Close enough to know how hard they work, and that they aren't especially well off.

[richard51]

You make my point, I think.

Better life than being without work.

Better life than without any capital/possessions.

You live on another planet if you think that 1 million euros plus + house + job isn't that great a start.,

I hope I have taught my kids to look after themselves and not rely on any inheritance. If that means moving area/country then go for it. Working hard isn't always about driving a tractor all day. In fact that is rather easy compared to actual manual labour. I've sort of done both ( the manual labour for sort of and the tractor driving was very enjoyable and not hard work at all).

So - why does land pass from generation to generation and farmers continue farming if its that bad. You do answer the question - it aint that bad! Indeed its much better than those with no silver spoon.

NB Where on earth did I say not to do any more work for the rest of the inheritors life!

NB dont know about France but no inheritance tax is payable in the UK - I know that from my relatives and certain accountants.

NB 2% of agricultural land does changes hands - period. I can quote maths too! The fact that 0.4% goes to speculators is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that speculators leave the land fallow just means that they cannot claim any government subsidy - please dont get me started on CAP!!!! The inheritor made good by going to the city can well be one of these speculators if he/she so chooses.

Nb for CAP please see previous threads - I ain't going there again.

[andyh4]

And note the study uses changes hands rather than is sold. So Betty's 1.6% movements within the agricultural industry includes those retiring and those who die in service. That is probably most of the changing hands.

Richard

if this farming malarkey were so wonderfully profitable why have the investment firms in France largely ignored it.* I say largely because I do know that some areas of Northern France have come to their attention, as have a number of better known vineyards in the Bordeaux area.

* part of the answer might lie in the number of departements where land values have fallen according to your link. Another by the stated growth rates over 20 years - somewhat better than a bank but only somewhat.

Our commune is largely agricultural with few being employed as agricultural workers. The majority are therefore farms owned and run by the family alone. The average household income for our commune is around €8500. Land prices dropped by 7% in 2016 in the Ardeche. Here at least it is not a money making exercise to be a farmer.

[richard51]

Andy

Yes people retire or die and pass on their wealth. Fact remains that people hang on to their land like grim death!!

Investment firms - very interested in large farming enterprises. 600+ acres should be profitable enough.

If not employed as agricultural workers then they aint farmers or have so little land that they can't expect to make a living from it.. 8,500 does seem low and probably reflects the unemployment situation in a poor rural region rather than the farming industry per se. Dont want to get into CAP but funds do not go to small "farmers" who own very little land.

In your region I suspect its not poor farmers, but poor unemployed who have no hope of jobs and rely on social payments.

Perhaps its a downward spiral but should those wanting more and with uneconomic land perhaps sell up and move elsewhere.

WB - only just seen your post on review. From my posts perhaps you will note that we are actually in agreement for those farmers owning the land. For tenant farmers they must grab as much land as possible to make it worthwhile and presumably do it as a job and, dare I say, because its better than any alternative. Being cynical, dont most jobs become routine and not what you originally expected or hoped for.

[andyh4]

Relatively few unemployed here Richard - certainly not the 9% national average. We do however have a relatively large number of retirees - many living from the agricultural pension that is 4/5 of not a lot (other 4/5 phrases are available).

The reason that people here stay in farming is however to avoid becoming a part of that unemployed group, because you are right, in such communities there is little else to do -

a few artisan building trades with their one or two (often casual) workers.

A couple of mechanics to mend the agricultural kit.

The usual professionals - vet, doctor, nurse etc.

Plus a few shop keepers and their employees.

So if you want to stay here you probably stay in farming, otherwise it's a move to the big city.

[YCCMB]

Richard:

NB (as you seem to pepper your posts with it) inheritance tax? Who mentioned this? (Apart from you)? If you sell land, however, and suddenly come into a large sum of money....it isn't tax free, is it? And if you sell all your land for the millions that you earlier suggested, there could be the little matter of ISF.

Andy makes the valid points. People stay in farming because they have to, not out of some perverse sense of loyalty or the joy of farming. The value of their land is academic. They're not going to be able to sell at the drop of a hat and sit pretty on the money.

No, you didn't say people who sell up would never have to work again. But I pointed out that, almost inevitably they wouldn't be able to, given that they haven't the skills to step from farming to most other careers. Again, Andy confirms my point.

Try saying that driving a tractor is "enjoyable" when you've been doing it for 17 hours a day for a couple of weeks and when you haven't had a holiday for a few years because there's nobody to look after your cows, let alone your land. Imagine sitting down to dinner and a couple of hours of relaxation before bed, when your phone rings and it's someone telling you that your cows, on a parcel of your land 25km away, have got loose and you have to go and sort it out, or getting up night after night to attend to cows that are calving. Try spending a few weeks harvesting spuds, then hand sorting and bagging them, then waiting up until silly o'clock (or being awakened at dawn) for the lorry driver from Poland who's been sent to collect them for export, all for the princely sum (to you) of 14 cents a kilo. That's the rate as at last week, and this is a good year, price wise. I've known it to be half that.

But hey, it's all good. Anyone in farming can just pack it all in, sell the farm and live on the millions it makes. A bit like saying that if your house is worth millions, you can sell it and live in a tent. Anyone can do it. Farming? Piece of cake. And I'm pretty sure that all the farmers I know have taught their children independence too. Not to mention work ethic. I expect you've seen "Être et Avoir" - but if not, take a look at it from the point of view of how it documents the life of farming children in a rural community, then maybe question whether a kid in primary school who spends most of his or her non-school time working on a farm is thinking "one day, this will all be mine" in the same way that a Trustafarian whose daddy has just paid for his round-the-world gap year might do. I doubt it.

[richard51]

I think somebody has been watching too much Emmerdale or listening to the Archers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH7X-yA3OBM

There are lots of people from farming stock who go on to have fine upstanding professional careers. I hope you aren't classifying farmers and their offspring as somehow less able.

In terms of tractor driving, its a world apart from the hassle of driving lorries on the roads of today.

[andyh4]

Richard

Not quite sure what your little YouTube clip was supposed to demonstrate unless it was how easy and relaxing potato cropping is.

What it leaves out is the cost of the equipment. I could not track down the price of a self propelled potato harvester but will make an educated guess of between £250.000 - 350.000. I did track down the price for a similar tractor to that towing the trailer £54.000 - for a second hand model. Then add the cost of a good sturdy trailer to carry 10 tonnes - £7.000 - 10.000. New kit all round and you are probably looking at the thick end of half a million euros.

Not that any farmer round here could even get that kit to their farms easily, let alone pay for it. The roads are just too narrow and twisty. Potatoes are harvested in a much more traditional method here with a turning share to lift them and human hands to pick them up and put them in baskets.

With the sorts of financial burdens for the kit your clip shows it is perhaps not entirely unsurprising that suicide rates in the UK farming community are around 33% higher than the average population. .

Your comment about farmers not being stupid is well made; but if they wanted to stay here and not move to the city then they have no real choice - as per my previous post. In fact throughout the 20th century that is exactly what has happened, with the village population gradually drifting down to around 1/3 of what it was in 1900. Since the start of this century that has started to turn around and more - and importantly younger - people now moving in/back. The ability to run business remotely has undoubtedly helped.