Selling a house to an English couple

[vickybear]

We are selling our house to an English couple and will be changing the proceeds of the sale to sterling.

Given the current state of the euro, does anyone know whether it's possible to get the Notaire to transfer the Deeds at our agreed sale price but have the proceeds paid to us through a UK solicitor in sterling at a rate agreed with the vendors.

They have forward bought their euros at not a great rate and both sides will benefit if we can do this.

It would be like giving them the house and then them making us a payment in the uk? I have asked the notaire via email as I'm in the UK now but he hasn't responded.

 

Any help gratefully received.

[Chancer]

What you are suggesting would mean that the proceeds would not actually pass through the Notaires account.

This would not be allowed as he is responsible for ensuring that all taxes, debts etc are paid before passing on the balance to the seller.

[Will]

I am sure I have researched this before, maybe even for this forum. It is possible for the transaction to be carried out entirely in sterling, but it does seem to involve a heck of a lot of faffing about and, in addition to the French notaire, you need to use an English lawyer (in fact two - one each for buyer and seller) who understand how it works, and they come at a cost. So unless it is a particularly high value property it seems doubtful that anybody will benefit except the lawyers.

I have just done a google search, and came up with http://www.totallyproperty.com/selling-overseas-property/917-selling-property-sterling.html . I have to say that the words and style sound very familar and it seems somebody called Avery has ripped off one of my postings for another fourm... Hope it wasn't you, Ron [6] 

Edit - compare that link above with http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/631922/ShowPost.aspx. Do you think they may be related?

 

[Dick Smith]

I think we should be told.

[Will]

Just to clarify, the two links in my post above were indeed related. Having been contacted, the administrator of the website concerned has removed the page in my first link for copyright reasons. But don't worry, the words in the second link (the one on this site) are identical.

It's not exactly what Vickybear was asking about, but I think it amounts to much the same thing.

[BJSLIV]

I can see a further complication as far as the collection of CGT is concerned.

If this is payable because the house is a secondaire  provision would have to be made for this money to paid to the notaire. In addition if the house is over 150,000 euros, I think "off shoring" the transaction would increase the probablity that the notaire would  insist that one of those expensive guarantor companies be involved to cover the risk of default.

[Teamedup]

I think that you should bite the bullet and just put everything through in euros properly. You bought in France and so are they, the expectation should always be that this transaction would normally be in euros, so why not just do it in euros.

I have heard that it is possible to do a £ transaction, but I am sure that the costs involved would make this  juggling of marginal benefit.

[vickybear]

Thanks for the responses.

There is no CGT. This was a primary residence and we have lost £6000 in the last week on currency rates so for us, it's not a trivial amount as we have to get back in to the Uk property market so every penny counts!

Thank again.

[vickybear]

Just so everyone knows.......

Hubby went to see the Notaire.

He said 'absolutely no problem' making the transaction in sterling. He is only interested in what he should receive for taxes etc in euros. He does not want to know what rate we agree with the purchasers. He does not need to speak to any English solicitor.

Basically, he has told us what balance he requires by completion day in euros and is happy for the 4 of us to tell him when to complete the transaction i.e. after the sterling hits our solicitors bank.

Great news if it wasn't for the fact that our purchasers are tied in to a forward purchase of euros at 1.45. If they want to come out of the deal the dealer will sell the euros on their behalf but I think he may struggle to get rid of them at 1.45 so we're stuck with a euro transaction.

For all of you out there planning to sell your primary residence in France for a move back to the UK, agree a STERLING price with your purchasers if you wish. It can be done and you get your money, in sterling, on completion day without losing thousands of pounds due to exchange rate fluctuations like we have over the last few weeks.

We bought at 1.41, if we're very lucky we'll be selling at around 1.50. Thats £17000 of our money down the pan!

 

[Ron Avery]

Dick said " I think we should be told"

You'll have to keep guessing Dick, I have Pm'd  Will, I think he knows me better than that[:P]

[Teamedup]

Sadly Vickybear, this is just one of those things with exchange rates. It boils down to good luck, you could just as easily have gained that much. We have known the old franc go from about 6 to the £ to about 13 to the £. In theory it should have been aroun d10ff to the £. We have gained and lost over the years. I have no idea as to what it'll be like when we move as ours is planned this year. I'm already feeling very philosophical about it.

[Llwyncelyn]

We bought at 1.67 to the £ in 2001.  Thus I am on this occasion in agreement with TeamedUp, that it is one of those things.  However, in saying that a hit of £17000 is a huge hit, and we must all sympathise with you.

Perhaps it was for this and a number of other reasons that we retained a bolthole in the UK. If we have to move back we too will take a hit, for there is no way that perhaps and I say perhaps the euro will move that much again?

However, there are people in the major financial centres of the world trading pounds perhaps trading euros perhaps.  What do I know on the subject...............nothing and freely admitted as such.

 

[mint]

i do find it most interesting that you could do the deal in sterling without extra cost.  i understood that it wasn't possible because the notaire is unlikely to have a sterling account to receive the funds!

mind you, we had a dopey old notaire and a less- than-well-informed, so-called "translator".  will bear all this in mind next time and i shall be at my most insistent (if i find that's the best method to transact)

[vickybear]

Sweet 17......the sterling never comes to France. The notaire is not responsible for ensuring the money gets to us if we don't ask him to be. He is responsible for ensuring the French government get their tax and he gets his fees in euros. So what happens is the Notaire tells you what tax and fees he requires by completion day and you agree with your buyers a sterling sale price. They pay this to your UK solicitor, or to theirUK solicitor to forward on, if they prefer for safety. When your UK solicitor has the funds he tells you, then you tell the Notaire to complete the transfer of deeds.

There may be a small additional cost to the UK solicitor for handling the funds, but not as much as you could risk generally with just a 1 cent move in the wrong direction.

Not sure what happens if CGT is payable but I expect the Notaire can also tell you this amount and so long as he has it by completion day you can still do the sterling transfer.

At least then from the day you sell you can rest easy knowing what you're actually going to get.

Hope this clarifies.

[Will]

Interesting to see that your post above has confirmed that you need to employ two British solicitors in addition to the French notaire.

[Anton Redman]

Given the buyers are either going to risk using one of the currency brokers or loose 1 % on transfering the money and you are going to be in the same position. I suggest Notaire Shopping ( visit a number of notaires and see what they say) explain the reasons and you may find one who is prepared to accept or facilitate payment UK bank account to UK bank account via the Internet. You will end up with fees and taxes that vary based on exchange rate on the day.

[Dick Smith]

Sorry, Ron, I was just quoting the Private Eye 'joke' they always make in their lookalikes feature.

[Llwyncelyn]

Will you do not have to employed two 'differing' Solicitors!  Imagine a large provincial practice with a large conveyancing practice.  As long as they operate 'Chinese Walls' and give appropriate legal advice to the vendor and the purchaser, there is in reality nothing to stop you doing so.

However, I absolutely agree that it is better for two separate as in the true sense of the word to become involved.

You may find this strange, but on house purchases and sales I did not use Solicitors in the town in which I then lived.  Too small too much gossip and hence Bristol...........pay more but you know that someone like Lyons Davidson or Burgess Salmon are going to look after you.  Conveyancing is much much easier nowadays but its a commodity and with quite rightly the client driving down the costs.  Competition is very much to the fore in this market place.  Of course Licenced Conveyancers can also do the work but that is a bit more messy.

[Will]

The original reference to the necessity of using two UK solicitors as well as the notaire came from an article by Sykes Anderson. It seemed a bit of an overkill, making the process more suited to high-value property rather than the sort of houses the likes of us can afford.

Incidentally, I have used two offices of the same practice for one English house transaction and it went very smoothly, but it was an executor sale with no chain involved, so it should (unlike many French inheritance sales). Since then, in England I have used licensed conveyancers rather than solicitors and been very satisfied. When buying our current English house they were far more professional and efficient than the low-cost solicitor retained by the seller.

[Llwyncelyn]

Will I agree entirely that LC do a very good job.  I know some who run a practice and run it absolutely well.............without them the practice would go down hill.

Of course they cannot (as far as I know) give undertakings thus say there is a mortgage when they ask for deeds of a property that you are selling they have to give an undertaking that they will remit the proceeds back to the Bank or BS.  They cannot do that so that element has to be given by a Solicitor.

I may be wrong things may have changed for the quill pen days when I first started in this business!

Still more things to think about as to how I am going to get out in the morning for a blood test.  Its about 4km and up and down an unmade road.  I drive a 4 x 4 but tried the other day when the snow started and that was scary indeed.

I think I will leave it until Monday.

rdgs

 

 

[vickybear]

Just to let you all know we have happily returned to the UK having completed our French sale in sterling. It could not have been easier.

The French house was our primary residence so no CGT. The Notaire told us the figure he needed for fees and taxes and the purchasers paid this. We agreed an english price for the sale and an exchange rate for the Notaires money. This was between ourselves and the purchasers only. No-one else wanted to know the rate. The Notaire did not need to note it anywhere.

The ONLY reason a second UK solicitor was used was for money laundering. It was easier for our buyers to use their usual local solicitor to take in Passports etc, however if our buyers had sent money laundering ID to our solicitor only one solicitor would have been required to handle the funds. Our solicitor received the Sterling from theirs, he called us to say it had arrived then we gave the Notaire the nod to complete the transfer. Simple, simple, simple. We knew what we were going to get and stopped worrying about the exchange rate. In addition, we had our sterling on the day we sold which saved us a further week of faffing about getting it changed back to sterling from euros.

We did it, that's how we did it, anything anyone else says is wrong...........and on that note, those of you with animals and pet passports who have been told you can't use them unless you have annual boosters in France may want to visit my post in the Pets section where I am about to correct a million earlier posts regarding the cans and can'ts of this.

I lost a lot of sleep due to the  mis information on both these subjects from posters who actually don't know the correct facts! Thank you though to those who do....and an even bigger thank you to those who don't and choose to say nowt!!  [;-)]

[Moorejw]

Thank you Vickybear for informing us all about the outcome. This will be very useful for any future English to English sales.

[Will]

Yes, it is another useful reference.

I am not quite sure where the 'misinformation' is that caused you such problems. I don't see anybody saying that what you did cannot be done - merely offering caution that legal costs and exchange rates may not work in your favour. But I am glad it did work out for you.

The article I mentioned confirmed your experience, though that was using the example of a high value house which made legal costs a much smaller percentage. That article (by Sykes Anderson) also mentions that finding a notaire willing to undertake the transaction may be difficult and that if a mortgage is involved it can cause problems. Likewise I can see that if plus value (capital gains tax) is payable in France then it may not necessarily work.

But I for one am glad that your experience proves that it is not just possible, but achievable.

[AnOther]

Nice to see someone posting back the outcome of a situation however I do think that the dig about alleged "misinformation" is unwarranted.

If nothing else what the thread has demonstrated is that, unlike UK where rules tends to be observed, in France they are far more open to interpretation, something I'd imagine the the OP would be aware of having lived in the country.

[vickybear]

Oops!!!  Sorry to offend....but you have to admit that a lot of posts on this forum are answered with  'I've heard' or 'I think'. A lot of posts are answered with absolutely excellent information and Will springs to mind as someone whom I have generally held in high regard for his answers over the last 2 years, Ron Avery too ( is he still around? ).

The point I'm making really is that if you don't know your answer is absolutely correct it's safer to say nothing. I agonised for over a year between Declaration or Permis before a very nice Irish surveyor helped me out for some cash and a pint and during this time got a lot of conflicting advice on what I actually needed from this forum....some of which was obviously right, some absolutely wrong!

We've moved back to the UK after admitting defeat. Our French was just not good enough and we were exhausted in the end trying to get through the red tape and paperwork and general difficulties of everyday life in a foreign land, beautiful as it was. Our poor house is sold and sitting empty until the new owners take their next 'break' after nearly 2 solid years of renovating it and turning it into a 'permanent' home. We've only just managed to keep on the housing ladder in the UK and have a lovely new home on the Devon coast ( I can even see the sea if I stand on tippy toes ) and we watch with horror the TV programmes of Brits planning to move abroad who are even less prepared and financially able than we were 2 years ago.

For those of you it has worked for I say great, good for you. But for the Brits who are planning to move out to France in the near future I cannot say loud enough 'DO YOUR RESEARCH' and when you think you've done enough, do as much again. 

It's not cheaper, the weather can be truly horrendous, if you can't speak French DON'T GO, paying your tax or even just your household bills can be almost impossible without the help of a French speaker ( particularly if you are elderly ) emails complaining about damaged goods you have had delivered will be ignored, and 2/3rds of Brits who move to France move back to the UK in the first 3 years.

However, the air is clean, the sky sparkles at night like Xmas lights, the French  neighbours know how to be neighbours and the services ( France telecom, dechetterie, vets etc ) are truly exceptional!!!

But tomorrow morning I'll be back on the beach with my dogs passing the time of day with the other dog walkers ( in English!), after which I may have a toasted tea cake or a dougnut.......or maybe just a quarter of mint humbugs.....it's the small things that count in the end!!!!

Good luck to all who remain, all who have yet to arrive, and all who can say 'well at least I tried it!!'