Keeping Uk Residency?

[Val_2]

Sara,If only you had mentioned about your mother being of Italian birth and speaking french in the very beginning it would have been a lot easier to reply,therefore if I made any remarks that upset you I appologise.This is the trouble on forums when people don't post all the really relevent info and we all respond to what has been divulged,sometimes not very nice but usually folks try and give their best intentions. It does now sound as though France is THE real place for her to be if she has tired of the UK.

[blackcat]

OH gosh no, no-one upset me, in fact I must admit to being slightly amused at some of the postings!

Perhaps \I should have explained but I didnt want to waffle on too too much by trying to justify the move, would have been far too long a read!

Anyway, having read all the postings, am I right in thinking that there is a 3 months 'holiday' period where we would then all need to register or apply for residency? What if my mum wanted another 3 months to make up her mind could she leave it til 6 months?

Thanks for your help.

 

 

[cooperlola]

It's a bit of a grey area, imo, Sara.  According to the new rules : Formalités à l'installation en France

Les citoyens de l'UE et assimilés, qui souhaitent s'installer en France, doivent être munis d'une carte d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité. 

Dans les trois mois suivant leur arrivée, ils doivent se faire enregistrer auprès du maire de leur commune de résidence, sous peine d'amende. 

as you see, you must register your intention to stay within the first three months.  However, should you return to the UK to live permanently within less than 6 months (183 days) and do not return to France within a year, then your tax liability can still, imo, be in the UK.  I think the only thing to do would be for her to register, so that she complies with the new regs (FULL DETAILS HERE), but should she change her mind and wish to return home between 3 and 6 months, that she returns to the mairie to explain the situation.  But it's a matter of timing as much as anything.  Tax returns must be submitted in the May of the year following one's arrival, and thus provided she is back in the UK and settled - and has explained to the mairie that she no longer intends to reside in France - by the time her first French tax return would have been due - then she should be fine, imo, if she has not exceeded the 183 days. 

But that is just my interpretation of what are not very clear guidelines for instances where people are not certain what their decision will be.

[Sunday Driver]

This thread has dragged on a while, so I think I can get away with prolonging it a bit further....

Regarding Coops' interpretation of the potential tax situation, if one applies for residency under the immigration rules then that must, by definition, trigger a taxable event according to the definition of tax residency:

Si vous avez plus de 18 ans et si vous êtes domicilié en France (métropole et départements d’outre-mer), vous devez souscrire chaque année une déclaration.

Vous devez habiter en France :

• de façon permanente, avec votre famille

• ou y posséder votre lieu de séjour principal

• ou y exercer votre activité professionnelle principale

• ou y avoir le centre de vos intérêts économiques 

This definition (source: impots.gouv.fr) does not mention 183 days as a residence criteria.  In fact, a quick search of their website highlights only one 'hit' on the phrase 183 days - and that concerns exoneration for people in salaried employment and sent by their employer to work abroad.

These are just quick thoughts and I haven't done any further investigation into the tax legislation, but it does suggest that registering for legal residency will make one immediately tax resident until such time as that residency is relinquished by moving permanently abroad. It'd end up being the same split-year situation that applies to any former UK taxpayer moving to France.

Another point - the mairie declarations are reported to the préfectures, and under the current 'lutte contres des frauds', there's no reason why they won't also be copied to the impots.  On that basis, I don't think that telling the mairie that you're moving out before the next tax declaration is due will exonerate someone from their tax liability - it's not the mairies decision.

This would appear to present a very clear guideline which will remove the 'well, I haven't made up my mind yet' situation which many unscrupulous expats employ to avoid declaring here.

That'll please Ron no end.........[;-)]

 

 

[dr orloff]

That is my understanding too.

[blackcat]

Hi again

Thanks for the mine of information! Im clearer on the residency and tax perspective, but still uncertain on the pension side of things. obviously we will have to take professional advice but Im just trying to gain a little basic knowledge here to help out.

Basically, so, we all decide to apply/register for residency and open french bank accounts. Me and hubby find work (in an ideal world) and look forward to filling out our tax returns!? We inform the UK we are no longer resident, our child benefit stops and hopefully the inland revenue wont pester us again (although we will still  have part of the year to complete a UK tax return for).  We register for french child benefit presumably.

Grey area - what happens to mums UK pensions? She has 2 private pensions and one state pension.

Thank you and apologies for the barrage of questions. Youve been most helpful.

 

 

 

 

[Benjamin]

When you arrive here your Mum needs to complete the following form (available on line here http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/france-individual.pdf).

This is largely self explanatory and will enable your Mum's pensions to be received without deduction of UK tax (although as you already know UK tax is not deducted at source on her UK State Pension but is collected through her tax coding). If,as is most likely, she has continued to have tax deducted at source from her private pensions, this form will trigger a refund of tax paid since she moved.

You will see from this form that it needs to be completed (both language versions) and submitted to your local French tax office. You could try submitting it as soon as your Mum arrives here but the opinion on this forum is that your Mum submits it with her first French tax return.

You should inform your UK tax office(s) that you are leaving the UK and any future dealings you have with HMRC will be through the Centre for Non-Residents in Nottingham.