Jamie Oliver last night

[Dick Smith]

No DS in the UK now, Mrs O, just 'Food Technology', part of CDT, applies to both boys and girls and teaches them very little, in my opinion, and certainly not how to cook and appreciate good food. I have seen reports that in Paris there has been a big effort to educate primaire kids in recognising and cooking good food, very much along the lines of JO.

[Battypuss]

I'm happy to be corrected (yes, I know about Picard etc.) but there are definately fewer 'ready meals' on sale here; perhaps that contributes? Also the markets? We used to play 'let's spot something new in the food bit' every week. Kids are sponges, if you provide the water, they sop it up.

[Russethouse]

Perhaps JO will front a campaign to bring back Domestic Science in school, the time has gone when Mum could teach it at home because a lot of Mums didn't have DS lessons either.

She's out so I can tell you now (and anyway doesn't read this forum) but when my daughter was in her gap year she actually asked where milk came from - was it cows urine ? It probably would have been less funny had she not been working for MAFF

How did she grow up not knowing that ?????????

[GRT17]

[quote]Hmmm- my good old Sec Mod, (now a comp) was opened in 1963, I was in the first in-take. We had two DS rooms for cookery with a range of electric (solid hotplates and radiant rings)and gas cookers to g...[/quote]

Gay

I think there must have been many 1960s schools with cookery class room built to this design, we too had the "Ercol" dining room and green/ gray Denby china, I thought it was wonderful. Excellent sewing room too but I don't think we had the zig-zag on our machines, all seams had to be finished with 1/8th inch turnings.

The real test came when as a 17yr. old student I spent two years living in London bed sits. Cooking facilities were usually a lone gas ring at floor level, one saucepan and a wash basin in the corner or on landing for washing-up. Toast could be made in front of the gas fire. Perishables such as butter and milk were kept on the window sill, (sour in summer and frozen in Winter) no such luxury as a fridge. It was possible to buy small quantities, one or two rashers of bacon, a couple of eggs, 2oz butter at Sainsbury's in Earls Court. I learnt to cook all sorts of things in those days and this knowledge had been really useful at certain times i.e. having kitchens re-vamped both in U.K.and in France...........................  

.........I could go on, my daughters love to hear these stories and it's probably like hearing our parents talk about their life during the war hmm. showing my age now!

Back to the subject:

 Val2 it's a shame you didn't stick with Jamie Oliver the other night. I thought it was a good program if only to educate the parents who watched. Hopefully in time they will change their habits, they might even lobby the school authorities and things might change

One critiscism, why does he need to use the F*** word so much? I am sure he never did in his earlier programs.

[Racerbear02]

I must be just about a contempary of Dick Smith as I started teaching in 1974, I used to teach woodwork, engineering and technical drawing, over the years the subjects changed in the same way as domestic science, into a 'technology' faculty, this had the benefit (!) of combiining all the old practical subjects under one roof so to speak, it later became a creative arts faculty with the addition of music, much to the music departments chagrin as they could not really see themselves associated with the 'lower orders'.

During that time the hard craft side changed to doing a lot moire drawing and discussing rather than making of things, this had the benefit (! again) of further alienating the less accedemically gifted children who previously had done well at practical subjects. The result from this is now seen in the current lack of plumbers, woodworkers engineers etc. as these children had no opportunity to get a feel for the 'hands on' practice which would lead them into apprenticeships and good jobs, it was considered too 'manual' and as we were all told at the time this was not a good thing, everyone should have the same opportunity to not have to work with their hands, but sit in an office and shuffle paper, no computers then. The domestic science went the same way into food technology, where the children again wrote about cooking rather than 'hands on' doing it, and I feel that this is to a large part responsible for the situation we find ourselves in now.

There was a member of the ds staff who was one of the old school, and she fought tooth and nail to try to keep the cooking going, but she was just ignored by the head of faculty who regarded her as a dinosaur who could not see the bright future, he spent too much time on courses absorbing all the latest 'wonder' ideas and trying to elevate the status of the subjects under his control so that he could have equal staffroom standing with the head of English and Maths. No thought was given to the needs of the children or the needs of society, we changed from providing kids to industry with the skills they needed, to the attitude that it was not the place of education to provide children trained for industry of any type, and that it was the function of industry not education to train the children. Ostriches in the ivory towers of secondary education.

The final straw for me was when in an attempt to be more 'relevant' to the needs of children in 1980's north Merseyside, the creative arts faculty would engage in a group project to encompass all the contained disciplines as it was felt that making fire pokers was perhaps not really relevant to children who mostly lived in homes with central heating, fair comment. The master plan was that we would do a project on survival on a desert island, the art dept. would draw the island, food technology would cook food which could be caught on this island over open fires, the craft and design dept. would 'problem solve' the needs of staying alive on the island, this was where my old boy scout skills came into play allowing wonderous things to be made with garden bamboo poles lashed together, the music dept. would play music on items found on the island and office skills people would write it all up on their typewriters.

This was needless to say a total disaster and waste of time, at the debrief of the project , another term the head of faculty had learned from the courses he went on, the staff were blamed for its failure as we were not really committed to the new way of doing things. When we were told that the next project was for the faculty to design a moon station !!! I handed my notice in.

There now is a swing in education to perhaps a slightly more realistic view of childrens needs and I am told that some of the engineering shops which were dismantled and scrapped in the 80/90's are now going to be reinstated, we can only hope that the same is true of the cookery rooms, as everyone has said, cooking is a life skill which is sorely needed, all the more so because the current crop of parents are, by and large, coming from the age group who did not have the benefit of going home with their hand made scones etc.

[Dick Smith]

Racerbear - this is all so familiar - it is almost parallel to what happened in our school. And at the same time apprenticeships and work training went out of the window too, leading not only to skills shortages but basic skills shortages.

And now we have, again, the position taken by the UK government that 'vocational' (read craft) education will not be accepted as a proper qualification. I often ask people in Gifted and Talented education what they think would happen to Grinling Gibbons if he was at school now. I expect he'd be put in detention for whittling.

[Paolo]

This is an interesting discussion, and I hope it's going to become a real issue in Britain. Going back to what we feed our children, I watch this Jamie Oliver programme with mounting horror. We've got two little 'uns and my wife has always tried to make them proper food, nothing processed, no sugar, no salt. Is it unconnected that they are very happy, very healthy, sleep 12 hours straight every single night, don't have tantrums, etc?

We live among middle-class, educated parents (this is Kingston after all!) and we are regarded as fanatical oddballs. Every other parent we know feeds their children an almost exclusive diet of processed/frozen/ready meals. When they are thirsty our children drink water - all their friends drink Ribena or worse. Ribena is now seen (and marketed) as a healthy drink.

One mother was particularly proud of her son for eating a 'Frootini'. A 'Frootini' is a tub of processed fruit parts in a sugar syrup. It is like eating fruit with all the vitamins removed and half a pound of sugar and preservatives added. His reward for eating this was a chocolate bar. How does an intelligent parent come to the decision that instead of buying her child a fruit, she will buy him a 'Frootini'?

It is very time-consuming and tedious to prepare fresh meals every day for your children. It is incredibly easy to stick something in the microwave, especially when you are reassured that it has 'reduced salt' or some such nod to the health lobby. But what do parents do with the time they save by not giving their children a decent start in life? As far as I can see they watch television.

(Don't get me started on plonking kids in front of telly for their meals - I saw a cornflake in the living room carpet at a friend's house, she bashfully told me that her kids of 1 and 3 have TV breakfasts!)

Jamie Oliver - I didn't like him as the Naked Chef, but he is some sort of latter-day saint. He should be made a government 'czar'

Paolo

[Tresco]

'....put in detention for whittling', that made me laugh Dicksmith.

One of my mums favourite topics at the moment relates to this comment.  As everyone seems to want 'go to uni', "where will the butchers, bakers and candlestick makers come from?" she cries. As shops everywhere seem to be full of candles, I don't think she needs to worry on that score.

This has been a great thread to read. Lots of interesting views and memories reawakened, I had both domestic science, meal planning, cooking, nutrition, and woodwork/metalwork on 6 months rotation (made an ashtray in the form of a devils head - what was that all about, it was a Catholic school too).

I too am amazed by what people give their kids to eat, chips and gravy was a once every 6 weeks treat for us. I see people giving their kids orange 'juice' rather than an orange, and saying it's the same thing.

If Jamie Oliver, (has anyone seen the Jamie 'copy' on French TV?) can raise awareness, that's a good thing in itself, and if this leads to change, even better. As Simon said earlier, responsible adults should make the choices for childrens diet in schools. This doesn't mean denial of choice to children, it just means all the available choices should be healthy.

tresco

 

[Russethouse]

Reading Gills post made me check the plate rack - we had Woods' Beryl' at school in a particularly nasty shade of green, but when some came my way in an auction box I just had to keep it !!

Do you think after the School dinners project JO will start a 'bring back DS campaign' ??

[GRT17]

Gay

 if you  would like any more "Green Beryl" china, my late MIL had quite a collection which will soon be sent to a charity shop!

BTW did you note that JO was definitely not keen on the South Beach diet at his restaurant, ex. U.S. president or not! LOL

 

Gill

[Russethouse]

Yes, I smiled when they mentioned South Beach - I wonder if Jamie knew that it really has very little processed food ?

I expect it was frustrating for the students who had worked hard to prepare 'special' food, but really up to Clintons 'people' to have forewarned them, as they do for the Queen.

Hang on to the Beryl ! I have got quite fond of it now.......must be an 'age' thing

[Mistral]

I've been enjoying this discussion. I must have been among the last generation to have obligatory DS at school (I left in 1985) I can't say I enjoyed it but it was a lot more fun than needlework. BUT (and it deserves capitals) I realise that I it's left its legacy. I have a basic understanding of nutrition and I can produce an edible meal. The needlework has come in handy here in france too. Carnaval is coming up soon.

But so many of my french friends don't have any idea about cooking and seem almost frightened of it. French schools used to teach cookery, then it became EMT (education manuelle et technique) which became technology. The only pupils who learn anything about cooking now are those in a lycée hotellier or in LEP doing BEP bio-services.

 

[chicfille]

"so many of my french friends don't have any idea about cooking and seem almost frightened of it"

...might that be because of the strict "rules" of French cuisine? There's not a lot of room for innovation, or the "a bit of this, bit of that" approach so favoured by imperfectionists like me! 

[Kas33]

I was quite shocked when I watched the programme.

I am blessed with two boys of 5 and 3 that are fantastic eaters - they even once requested tete de veau in a restaurant even though the adults wouldn't try it - and they always have seconds in the cantine.

If they were at school in the UK would they only have a choice of junk or packed lunch, or do the schools offer healthy food too? Do the parents of primary school kids get to choose what they eat, or do the kids choose?

Thank goodness we moved when we did.

 

 

[chicfille]

Lots of schools in the UK offer a choice of junk, if they do hot lunches at all, but just recently there's been a backlash and some pioneering dinner ladies have started using fresh, high quality local produce and cooking proper meals with it for a cost only a bit higher than the pap they were dishing up before. I just wish more schools would get the message.

School meals are generally far better in France but I do wonder about the quality of the ingredients, especially the meat.

[Battypuss]

Three kids say it's damn good meat here in France in meals. They may have a few hiccups about couscous (which they loathe) but all agree it's good meat. Not much use to vegis I grant you.

NB Kids are very fussy. THEY will give it back to the butcher before I do!

[Mistral]

I would say that the quality of the meat varies from school to school and from cook to cook. My collège has a full time cook who produces all the meals on the premesis. My husband's school, on the other side of town, has the meals delivered by a contractor and all they have to do is heat them. More and more schools are using this method because it is cheaper but from listening to comments from pupils in schools that do, it seems that the meals aren't as nice. 

 I can't see french schools going down the organic/bio meat route just yet.

[chicfille]

My children's school has its own cook who buys the meat from local farms, some of it organic. We are all for this of course, but it is not the norm - meals for state primaries in the city are nearly all prepared in huge municipal kitchens for reheating as Mistral says, which is why I wondered about the quality of ingredients.

As a student here years ago I had some very dubious meat at the Restaurants Universitaires: spongy watery chicken, shoe leather steak etc.

[BJSLIV]

all prepared in huge municipal kitchens

Worse than that in many places it is contracted out to some of the usual suspect mess, sorry mass private catering companies who have a very direct interest in keeping the cost of their inputs as low as possible.

 

[David_Janet]

It's usually my OH who reads interesting threads and gives me a quick precis, but I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this topic.

I hope JO makes real progress with this project but I also wish he'd stop punctuating every sentence with the F... word.

The other reason I could never watch his original cookery programmes was that the camera work was so "all over the place". At least I don't become dizzy watching this series.

[Lesbatees]

Noticed in the Observer today that the catering company boss he took to task about Turkey Twizzlers has announced they will no longer supply them, even if schools ask for them.

Chalk one up for JO.

Val

[Battypuss]

dd3 has just come back from a week away with the school demanding oysters! Last time it was mussels, we already know she eats fois gras...she's ten. Thank God they are cheaper here than in England!

[Russethouse]

The more I think about all of this the madder I get !

A better lunch without additives would no doubt help the childrens concentration in the afternoon and unless we start feeding our children better the NHS is going to be picking up a big bill in a few years time.

I was chatting about this with friends yesterday, cookery has become a spectator 'sport' something to be watched on TV while the ready meal heats up - remember how people laughed when Delia Smith showed how to boil an egg ? Yet Delia was so popular that she made a fortune.......I think there is still room for that basic type of cookery (made interesting of course) shown at a time when people who work can watch it - perhaps Nora, Jamies school cook could do it !!