Cows break in!

[JohnRoss]

Does anyone know how French law applies to this situation. Our field has a fence round it which is in a bad state of repair, i.e. all the posts are rotten and it falls down a lot. Several times a cow and her mates have got into the field from the field next door and the farmer has come and chased them out at our request. He has always made a patch up repair and has been friendly and helpful in other ways.

It would appear that the fence is ours from what he says and that if we want to stop the visits it needs replacing. Now this is just too big a job for me and he has offered to do it at a rate of 45 euros an hour, he thinks 8 hours or so should do it, and an estimated 1 euro 60 each for new posts, I think about 150 posts needed plus the cost of new barbed wire. I am waiting for a final figure from him but I reckon maybe up to 800 to 900 euros maybe.

The only thing in our field that could come to harm is my 250 metres of solar energy collecting pipe for the pool otherwise we are not worried about the odd visit. The time before last a cow put its foot through a pipe and repairs were carried out by me, no big deal.

I could put a barbed wire fence round my pipes, much cheaper, but am not sure what the law says about any damage to his cows when they break into the field or come to any harm when in the field. Comments?.........JR

[danny]

In my opinion you are getting a good deal, grab it with both arms and buy him a nice bottle of wine when he finishes.

[audio]

As far as I understand, it is the farmer’s responsibility to keep his cows confined to his property; therefore he should erect fencing at his expense.

I can’t see him installing 150 posts with wire in 8 hours.

Just barbed wire will not keep cows in when they discover it’s not electrified.

45€/Hr is expensive for this type of job.

If you want you could install electric fencing easily and cheaply yourself.

Have a chat with the maire.

[JohnRoss]

Those were my thoughts danny on the face of it but I assume he is right about the ownership of the fence. There is a small river or large stream on about three quarters of the boundary and the fence is on our side. His cows come down to the river to drink and sometimes in the Summer when the water level is very low they wade across and come into our field. There is no fence on his side of the river and it is never deep enought to drown one of them.

I could take the cadastral plan to the mairie I suppose and check with them on who owns what but I don't want to upset this bloke as he seems friendly and has been helpful in the past. I will wait and see how much he quotes for the job and take it from there...........JR

PS Thanks audio so a visit to the mairie then I think.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]Those were my thoughts danny on the face of it but I assume he is right about the ownership of the fence. There is a small river or large stream on about three quarters of the boundary and the fence is on our side. His cows come down to the river to drink and sometimes in the Summer when the water level is very low they wade across and come into our field. There is no fence on his side of the river and it is never deep enought to drown one of them. I could take the cadastral plan to the mairie I suppose and check with them on who owns what but I don't want to upset this bloke as he seems friendly and has been helpful in the past. I will wait and see how much he quotes for the job and take it from there...........JR PS Thanks audio so a visit to the mairie then I think.[/quote]

The legend to the cadastral plan will indicate the ownership or shared ownership of the cloture/fence.

In the event of the cadastral plan being unclear then the sidfe on which the posts are located will indicate "prima facie" the ownership of the fence.

The fence should be suspended on the boundary line with the posts inside the owners domain.

How does the marking of the fence on your cadastral plan appear?

 

[andyh4]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]The only thing in our field that could come to harm is my 250 metres of solar energy collecting pipe for the pool otherwise we are not worried about the odd visit. JR[/quote]

 

What about the pool itself?

 

I only ask because a neighbour had a cow from a local farmer try and take a dip in his pool.  Unfortunately the pool security cover was on at the time and the damage was less than trivial.  They may be designed to support a 30 kilo child but not a ton+ of bovine flesh.

[suein56]

[quote user="JohnRoss"] His cows come down to the river to drink and sometimes in the Summer when the water level is very low they wade across and come into our field. There is no fence on his side of the river ... [/quote]

Perhaps there ought to be a fence on his side of the river. He is saving himself a small fortune by not having one, and then hoping to charge you to repair/redo yours.

Common sense tells me this is not your problem; but then this is France.

Sue

[audio]

For many years I was quite friendly with a cattle farmer; I remember well when he told me to be wary of cattle as every now and again he has a rogue cow (not a bull) that can be very dangerous, they are sent earlier than normal to the abattoir but in the meantime one may go walkabout.

[JohnRoss]

Ok folks well the pool is in the garden separate from the field and we have only had the herd in the garden once when the gate was left open. They can damage things just by their weight. One got into my neighbours garden and put its foot through the top of his fosse, he was not best pleased.

True cows can be dangerous and especially when they have young with them. Several people are killed each year by a rampant cow. I have been chased up a tree more than once in my youth by a mother with concerns for her young! Saying cush cush and whacking them on the bum does not always have the desired effect! Blowing up their noses as you do for a horse, very messy sometimes, does not work either!

I have made repairs to the fence this morning with more barbed wire and new posts which I had spare so they should not get in there again for a bit. I think I will put some questions by email to some mairies without being to specific. Our mairie staff might well be mates with the farmer and I would like to maintain the entente cordiale if I can.........JR

[Patf]

I think Audio is right - it's the farmer's responsibility to ensure that his animals are securely fenced in.

You shouldn't have to share any of the expense.

If the cows do any damage to your property you should claim off the farmer's insurance.

[Rabbie]

Audio and Patf are totally correct as regards the situation in England where you have a duty to keep your animals in regardless of the actual ownership of the fence. As this is IMO the commonsense answer I am not sure if it applies in France [:)]

[Patf]

I'm fairly sure about the insurance part as it has happened three times to us - twice having suffered damage, once our animals causing damage.

Farmers with animals need to have this kind of insurance otherwise if your animals damage someone's property you have to pay out of your own pocket.

[audio]

Rabbie has a good point. ‘I am not sure if it applies in France’.

Patf you are correct in writing ‘you can definitely make a claim on the farmers insurance’.

Proving what caused the damage although obvious maybe difficult if your neighbouring farmer is like mine. He would probably say the damage was caused by deer and he would present me with a bill for the fertiliser the cows left behind.

[JohnRoss]

Well I have sent an email from one of my little used email addresses to 5 local mairies asking who is reponsible for erecting and maintaining a fence to keep his cows out of my field. No names, locations or pack drill. It will be interesting to see any replies if any!.............JR

PS Nice enough bloke but he looked a bit Del Boyish when he offered to repair the fence at a cost to me!

[JohnRoss]

Well that was quick just got this from one of the five:

Bonjour,

Votre propriété doit être close........mais la clôture ne doit pas forcément être conçue de façon à empêcher les vaches d'un voisin d'entrer chez vous. Par contre, le voisin doit aussi se clore et de plus doit installer une clôture qui, elle, doit contenir ses vaches et les empêcher de divaguer.

Le Secrétaire.

Your property must be closed ........ but the fence does not need to be designed to prevent the cows from a neighbour to enter your home. On the contrary, the neighbour must also close and more must install a fence, it must contain and prevent the cows from straying.

So looks like this bloke is a bit of a lad eh?.........JR

[audio]

JR thanks for sharing your reply.‘Your property must be closed’ I’m not surprised but why is planning permission (at a charge I remember) required for a fence of any sort? Well that’s the requirement in my commune.

'Bit of a lad?'

Most are, in a world and law of their own.

[Araucaria]

Here's my experience for what it is worth.

Our property isn't fenced off, and it never has been. Maybe one day we will get round to it, but we like it the way it is. We are surrounded by dairy and beef farmers. Their cows get out quite regularly, and into our garden occasionally, but only once was there any damage, when a cow stepped onto the security cover for our pool. She caused over €1000 of damage - the cover had to be replaced, as it split from end to end, with several broken bars too.

The farmer's insurance paid up with no trouble at all. Quite quickly too. And I can't imagine he would have tried to shift the blame elsewhere either, possibly because he sometimes comes and swims in the pool.

If one really does have a duty to enclose one's own property then I am surprised that the loss adjuster (who came for a visit and saw the scene of the crime) didn't attempt to shift part of the cost onto us. Personally I find it hard to believe there is any such requirement: round here virtually all the farmhouses and farmyards are open to the road. I think people only fence off their flower gardens and vegetable plots. Probably because it's a bit tricky claiming off the boars' and deer's insurance companies (and are those apostrophe's in the right place's?).

[JohnRoss]

Maybe it is obligatory to have your boundary marked in some way. One often sees this little white round disks on stalks at the edge of property, sort of official boundry markers, bourne/bornes?

They do say your fence does not have to be cow proof but that his does if my translation is correct. He turned up this p.m. and just to short circuit him I said that I was a bit broke just now as I was having to pay out for all the trees on the edge of my garden to be cut back to keep my neighbour happy under French law which is in fact true. He looked a bit worried when I mentioned French law! I then had a bit of a chat about this and that and agreed to leave it for now and would look at it again later.

He did not pursue giving me a quote for replacing my fence and agreed to remove his cows if they got in my field again. We shook hands and wished each other well and he left. More of a Claude Greengrass than a Del Boy I think!.......JR

[Patf]

Glad you got a definite reply John. These french farmers can be very cunning when it comes to euros (or centimes.)

[pachapapa]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]Maybe it is obligatory to have your boundary marked in some way. One often sees this little white round disks on stalks at the edge of property, sort of official boundry markers, bourne/bornes? They do say your fence does not have to be cow proof but that his does if my translation is correct. He turned up this p.m. and just to short circuit him I said that I was a bit broke just now as I was having to pay out for all the trees on the edge of my garden to be cut back to keep my neighbour happy under French law which is in fact true. He looked a bit worried when I mentioned French law! I then had a bit of a chat about this and that and agreed to leave it for now and would look at it again later. He did not pursue giving me a quote for replacing my fence and agreed to remove his cows if they got in my field again. We shook hands and wished each other well and he left. More of a Claude Greengrass than a Del Boy I think!.......JR[/quote]

No obligation; Discs are testimony to work having been done by a Geomètre Expert; they are easy to move or damage although legally protected.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]Well that was quick just got this from one of the five: Bonjour, Votre propriété doit être close........mais la clôture ne doit pas forcément être conçue de façon à empêcher les vaches d'un voisin d'entrer chez vous. Par contre, le voisin doit aussi se clore et de plus doit installer une clôture qui, elle, doit contenir ses vaches et les empêcher de divaguer. Le Secrétaire. Your property must be closed ........ but the fence does not need to be designed to prevent the cows from a neighbour to enter your home. On the contrary, the neighbour must also close and more must install a fence, it must contain and prevent the cows from straying. So looks like this bloke is a bit of a lad eh?.........JR[/quote]

The Civil Code gives you the right to enclose your property; it does NOT oblige you to enclose.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Araucaria"]Here's my experience for what it is worth.

Our property isn't fenced off, and it never has been. Maybe one day we will get round to it, but we like it the way it is. We are surrounded by dairy and beef farmers. Their cows get out quite regularly, and into our garden occasionally, but only once was there any damage, when a cow stepped onto the security cover for our pool. She caused over €1000 of damage - the cover had to be replaced, as it split from end to end, with several broken bars too.

The farmer's insurance paid up with no trouble at all. Quite quickly too. And I can't imagine he would have tried to shift the blame elsewhere either, possibly because he sometimes comes and swims in the pool.

If one really does have a duty to enclose one's own property then I am surprised that the loss adjuster (who came for a visit and saw the scene of the crime) didn't attempt to shift part of the cost onto us. Personally I find it hard to believe there is any such requirement: round here virtually all the farmhouses and farmyards are open to the road. I think people only fence off their flower gardens and vegetable plots. Probably because it's a bit tricky claiming off the boars' and deer's insurance companies (and are those apostrophe's in the right place's?).
[/quote]

Civil Code imposes no duty to enclose.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="audio"]JR thanks for sharing your reply.‘Your property must be closed’ I’m not surprised but why is planning permission (at a charge I remember) required for a fence of any sort? Well that’s the requirement in my commune. 'Bit of a lad?' Most are, in a world and law of their own.[/quote]

Not true, no direct charge, only a Declaration Préalable is required. And that only for a boundary fence. As a boundary fence implies a contiguous property right it is normal that some minimal administrative control should be exercised in the interests of tranquility if nothing else.

[audio]

Yes PPP not a direct charge but doesn’t a fence add to tax habitation?

For my fence, I was requested to complete a déclaration de travaux exemptés de permis de construire ou déclaration de clôture.

Not planning permission as most of us know but I was told that ‘le grillage sera couleur verte’. So you cannot install whatever you desire and in my case I have not come across green barbed wire if I so wanted, so in my world I consider this planning permission.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="audio"]Yes PPP not a direct charge but doesn’t a fence add to tax habitation? For my fence, I was requested to complete a déclaration de travaux exemptés de permis de construire ou déclaration de clôture. Not planning permission as most of us know but I was told that ‘le grillage sera couleur verte’. So you cannot install whatever you desire and in my case I have not come across green barbed wire if I so wanted, so in my world I consider this planning permission.[/quote]

no change in t de h.

see you did it pre march 2007 when things were simplified.

within 500 metres of a national monument even a fence will require ok from architecte de batiments de france.

[IMG]http://www.weldmeshfence.com/upfiles/image/2007/06/12/200706120300461709.jpg[/IMG]

http://www.weldmeshfence.com/barbed_wire_fr.html