Wills from August 2015 - opting for UK regime

[nectarine]

I understand that French residents can opt to have their assets treated under the laws of the UK, if they choose, from August 2015 onwards.

We don't have a French will (we have a UK will from when we were living in the UK) and are planning to do one, but I understand this has to be handwritten. I'm OK with that, but what wording should be used when specifying that one wishes to have UK laws applied? Is there an agreed wording that should be used?

Has anybody done a French-language will with this UK provision and, if so, how did you word it?

Yes ... yes ... I should see a notaire but want to hear people's experiences first so, if and when I go, I am happy that they're doing as I asked. One notaire was very reluctant to put our house en tontine (some years ago) as he said it was inadvisable and sometimes not legal ... we pushed and got what we wanted. But I expect there may be notaires who are not au fait with the practical aspects of this new law so I'd like to be well versed in how a will should sound.

Thanks all.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, regarding the new EU law, any will made in France after 16th August 2012 can use these new rules regarding choice of applicable inheritance law, since although the law comes into full force on 16th August 2015, a 3 year introduction period will have been in progress up to that date. There is no need therefore to wait until August to exercise that right of choice if you so wish. For UK citizens who are French residents, it doesn't matter that the UK is not party to this law, merely that France is. It is France which is conveying the choice of applicable law, not the UK.

A quick Google re French wills suggests that a handwritten version (testament olographe) can be made in any language and still be valid, it doesn't have to be written in French. I believe however that if the wording isn't absolutely correct and unambiguous, and if a standard format is not followed, it may be easier to challenge than a version drawn up by a notaire (testament authentique). I understand the cost for the latter is less than 200 euros.

It is my intention to draft and sign a handwritten will in English while waiting for a notaire to draw up a more definitive document in French.

[NormanH]

I spoke to a Notaire friend of mine on Saturday morning and he was adamant that it is necessary to wait until August before making the French will.

Of course he could be wrong, but as he has a substantial British clientèle there may be those who find that their Notaire won't budge before that date.

[PaulT]

As to costs, we had a pair of mirror wills drawn up by a Notaire for 90 euros.

[idun]

Maybe not the wonder I thought it might be.

http://www.bosscher-advies.com/website/19/0/0/inheritance-law

There is a phrase in this article that states that if one has already accepted french law, then that cannot be changed. And that french inheritance tax will still be applicable.

Looked for the EU text, but as usual cannot find it. Never find anything on their site.[:@]

[nectarine]

[quote user="idun"]There is a phrase in this article that states that if one has already accepted french law, then that cannot be changed. [:@]

[/quote]

That's not what I infer from the article, Idun. I see it that you make a choice in your will, and perhaps can make another will or overwrite the first to change the regime later.

But I'm interested in what actual text one writes to select the country law that is applicable ... something like: I wish that my will is dealt with under UK law .....

Has anybody done one with wording like that?

[parsnips]

[quote user="nectarine"][quote user="idun"]There is a phrase in this article that states that if one has already accepted french law, then that cannot be changed. [:@]

[/quote]

That's not what I infer from the article, Idun. I see it that you make a choice in your will, and perhaps can make another will or overwrite the first to change the regime later.

But I'm interested in what actual text one writes to select the country law that is applicable ... something like: I wish that my will is dealt with under UK law .....

Has anybody done one with wording like that?[/quote]

Hi,

      As the option has to be made in a french will , which will have to be administered at the succession by a notaire , I think it would be wise to find a good english -speaking and up-to-date notaire and discuss with him / her.   You may be advised as to the wording for an orthograph will , or it may be suggested that a testament authentique is best. Either way it is not expensive and could avoid costly mistakes that would only come to light at the succession.

      Changing to UK law is not a straightforward choice , and there are many family situations which can best be dealt with by french law.  Changing to UK law does not help the IHT position of step-children for instance , and a french usufruit/quasi usufruit is much easier to set up and run , than a UK life-interest trust , which as the french "distrust" trusts , would be a headache for the survivor.  

[idun]

Applicable inheritance law

By will a choice can be made of which law is applicable to the

inheritance. Mind you, the choice is only between the law of the

person’s habitual residence or that of their nationality.

Any choice of applicable law made before August 17, 2015 will remain valid.

If no choice has been made, the law of the habitual residence of the

deceased at the time of death will be applicable. This means the social

residence, linked to their social life.

European Certificate of Succession

By means of this certificate heirs, legatees and executors will be able

to prove their status and rights in a different member country without

further formalities. As a direct consequence, procedures will be faster,

easier and cheaper.

So that is good news.

Inheritance tax

Does this also mean that French inheritance tax is no longer applicable?

Unfortunately not. Even after the date mentioned before, you will have to file a declaration with the French tax office.

In case the death occurred in France, you have to file the declaration already within 6 months.

Please note that payment of the inheritance tax has to take place at the

same time. This can implicate a substantial drain on resources,

especially for de facto partners but also for more remote relatives, as

they fall under the 60% tariff…

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Two things, what does 'will remain valid' mean. Does it mean that it can be changed or not????? It doesn't say.

And the liberty of leaving money to whom one wants, well it can be done under current french law to some extent, and if no matter what, for french residents, who chose to leave money to whom they want are still going to be taxed under french rules........ it means there is only a tiny abbattement of about 1500€, and then 60% will have to be paid in tax and quite quickly.

So this still is not the 'great' thing I thought it was going to be.

[nectarine]

Thanks all, and thanks Idun for your comments. It's obviously a bit ambiguous and seems open to interpretation.

However, as a straight forwarded mirror will, don't want to leave anything to the estranged stepchildren but to each other, and after that who cares! I think that Mr. Nectarine and I will see a notaire and get something drawn up.

[parsnips]

[quote user="nectarine"]Thanks all, and thanks Idun for your comments. It's obviously a bit ambiguous and seems open to interpretation.

However, as a straight forwarded mirror will, don't want to leave anything to the estranged stepchildren but to each other, and after that who cares! I think that Mr. Nectarine and I will see a notaire and get something drawn up.[/quote]

Hi,

       You say "after that who cares!" but if you really have no-one to leave anything to, why not think of mentioning in your wills a deserving charity  (like for instance "medecins sans frontiers")  who, after the second death, can receive your estate  tax-free?       If  you make no provision, the useless french state will get your hard earned assets.

[nectarine]

Fair point Parsnips, thanks. Actually I have in mind charities to receive it, but I meant that I didn't care whether stepchildren were excluded or whether my half went down Mr. N's line if I died first, or vice-versa. But yes, charities are worth considering .... though I'm not as rich as the Simpson's co-creator who died yesterday and left 100million to animal charities! Good man though!