Using a UK Will after August this year.

[Hereford]

I posted on this subject some weeks ago after a short chat with a Notaire at a social event (he brought up the subject not me!!).

Yesterday I had an appointment with him to sort out the necessary paperwork after the death of my mother and the subject came up again - I asked him if his opinion had changed in these last few weeks.

No: he said. France is happy to accept this legislation but the UK have not signed up. So: he could not probate a UK Will (obviously) and he has been advised that if an English (or Welsh etc) solicitor is asked to do it for a resident in France he will say "no, you must get the paperwork done in France as that is where you live".  Inpasse therefore.  Or as the Notaire put it "big question mark".

Me X. said that he has now been to two "training/update" events and this is what the Notaires have been told.

The question is of no import to me as we want our assets to go equally to our two children (on first death we have a Marriage Contract so survivor gets all).

However several posters on this forum seem to be concerned so I am posting this so that you can ask your own Notaire or possibly a UK solicitor.

I am sure we would all be interested in any other views as for all of us "events" can change things.

Mrs H.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Hereford"]I posted on this subject some weeks ago after a short chat with a Notaire at a social event (he brought up the subject not me!!).

Yesterday I had an appointment with him to sort out the necessary paperwork after the death of my mother and the subject came up again - I asked him if his opinion had changed in these last few weeks.

No: he said. France is happy to accept this legislation but the UK have not signed up. So: he could not probate a UK Will (obviously) and he has been advised that if an English (or Welsh etc) solicitor is asked to do it for a resident in France he will say "no, you must get the paperwork done in France as that is where you live".  Inpasse therefore.  Or as the Notaire put it "big question mark".

Me X. said that he has now been to two "training/update" events and this is what the Notaires have been told.

The question is of no import to me as we want our assets to go equally to our two children (on first death we have a Marriage Contract so survivor gets all).

However several posters on this forum seem to be concerned so I am posting this so that you can ask your own Notaire or possibly a UK solicitor.

I am sure we would all be interested in any other views as for all of us "events" can change things.

Mrs H.

[/quote]

Hi,

       Two points;

1.  After the date when this comes in , you should , if you want the equivalent of an English Will, make a French Will which begins by stating that you are opting for UK law to apply to your worldwide assets.  Then set out your wishes in accordance with UK law.   This remains a French Will which will be administered by a french notaire.

2.  It is possible to obtain probate on a UK Will in France - a private individual can do it by post - I've just helped someone do it ; a french notaire /avocat who is also a qualified and registered UK solicitor notarised the oath needed by the UK probate office.

 

[Hereford]

Interesting Parsnips.  I shall tackle the Notaire again next time I see him.

Will be very interested to know when, after August, anyone on the forum does a French Will as you suggest above.  I do know one person near us who would be very glad to be able to do this.

Thanks for your input.

Mrs H

[idun]

OK, being of little brain, what happens to those taxes that the french would normally charge, if one say, decided not to leave the money to the kids, but to say a dog's home, but not a registered french charity and one is a french resident?

Or, ofcourse, even the step kids, because that all goes into very murky waters?

[Hereford]

My understanding is that it will not affect the tax payable if one leaves it to other than close family etc but would allow one to disinherit, say, one child for instance. I can see that people with more than one marriage would find it very useful indeed.

In other words the money could go where you like but France would get their cut anyway based on the usual rules relating to the person it is left to. It could be good for the French economy as they may get more tax.

[idun]

OK.

Methinks I was in France far too long to feel in anyway comfortable with children being disinherited. Feels plain wrong to me. You see, I know people can have rotten kids, but also, I know kids with rotten parents too, which actually IMO is somehow worse. And I would rather kids be able to inherit as a universal right, as that takes into account both sides. 

[lindal1000]

Where I think it gets complicated in France is when step children, who may have been the one's doing all the caring and have been involved in the person's life, are treated worse than a natural child, who may not have had any contact. That to me seems unfair.

[nectarine]

I think if you met my stepkids, Idun, you'd probably change your mind. We haven't seen them for over 10 years and my husband is perfectly happy with that. And why should they automatically inherit? Of course if they were dependent in any way, under age, handicapped and needing assistance ... well I can understand that. They're fully grown independent adults who gave Mr. Nectarine an extremely hard time for many years so why should they have his money? (or any of mine, come to think of it)?

[idun]

ah nectarine this is complicated. Families are complicated. And none of us can re-live what has happened in the past in another relationship or really see how it has shaped current ones, with our now OH's or children and step children.

EG One of my friend was married to a rotter and now is married to an even worse fella. No idea why. The second husband's own kids love him, adore him and after many many years a couple of his kids are still aloof with my friend and if she was out of the picture I'm sure that they would say good riddance. He does nada for his kids, my friend does everything, and yet, apparently her good works are by proxy and he requires all the glory.

 Another friend has been living with a smashing bloke for the last five years, she had been married to a right rotter. And yet, this new fella says that he too was a rotter when he was young and he is much changed. I daresay that he hasn't lied about this and as I say, a smashing bloke now.. His kids want nothing to do with him and never see him.

My mother was awful to me, not my brother. My aunts get upset with me when they say she was a lovely woman and I contradict them. THEY did not have to live with her, I did!

I have thought about this for many years and am not about to change my mind now in spite of all the horror stories I have heard and seen over the years.

ps, I am in no way suggesting that they get one penny of your money nectarine. That would be unfair and plain wrong.

[parsnips]

[quote user="idun"]OK.

Methinks I was in France far too long to feel in anyway comfortable with children being disinherited. Feels plain wrong to me. You see, I know people can have rotten kids, but also, I know kids with rotten parents too, which actually IMO is somehow worse. And I would rather kids be able to inherit as a universal right, as that takes into account both sides. 

[/quote]

Hi,

    Refering to this and the following posts , can I say that this thread should not be about "right " and "wrong" or individuals' proclaimed moral values - it is about the mechanics of an item of legislation that exists, whether the moralists like it or not, and which can be used , or not, by english people resident in france to organise their successions , as they would if they lived in the UK.

    I find the point about the shocking  tax  treatment of step-children by the french succession system to be far more worthy of notice and complaint . Due to the non-conformity of UK and french adoption law , we cannot even use the normal  french solution of "adoption simple" of the spouse's children.

   

[Loiseau]

Yes, that refusal of the French to make stepchildren legitimate heirs is a reason I could/would never live full-time in France. Most of my "estate" will have come from my late husband in the first place, so it is unthinkable that they should not inherit from me the same share as my own daughter.

Angela

[idun]

but surely step children are better off in France than the UK? Personal experience says that they are.

I think if the french inheritance taxes remain on the UK wills, a lot of people will be in for a shock as these taxes have to be paid fairly promptly.

[Loiseau]

Better off how, idun? Mine would have to pay 60% tax on whatever miserable proportion of my estate I were allowed to leave them! whereas my daughter (their half-sister) would be a lot better off than them.

Angela

[AnOther]

Some interesting reading on the topic:

[url]http://www.stoneking.co.uk/news-events/news/one-will-or-two[/url]

[mint]

Yes, very interesting, Erns, and thank you for posting it.

[idun]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Better off how, idun? Mine would have to pay 60% tax on whatever miserable proportion of my estate I were allowed to leave them! whereas my daughter (their half-sister) would be a lot better off than them.

Angela[/quote]

If you wanted to give money as a step parent, they would pay a lot of inheritance tax, I agree with you. But these laws in France are basically for french families, like everywhere else, families are good, bad and ugly. And the children are always covered from their own parents part of the estate, or should be. The step parent is not a blood relative and so that money goes to their own blood line and depending on how close a relative, the taxes vary. IF the step parent wants to give to a non family member, ie step children, then high taxes will be paid.

It all seems perfectly fair to me these days.

And better off, well, yes, because in the UK, it all goes to the spouse, who may or may not get on with their new spouses children and if the step children's parent goes first, then the kids have no rights at all. In fact it is very hard to pass money onto kids, as from what we have gathered, it is down to trust. ie a couple marry, both with previous relationships and children, none together. They make a will stating that when the estate will be shared between all the children upon both deaths, however, one dies, say in their mid 60's and the survivor falls out with the step kids, changes the will, as everything has gone to them and their own kids and voila.

And this seems very unfair to me. And we have had solicitors advice about all this recently in the UK.

France is a country of family responsibility. And I like that.

Prior to the rules being changed, it never felt fair in France, but it OK now. There is cover in place for the surviving spouse and the children are covered too.

I do believe that if french taxes on inheritance remain in place for french residents and all their bien in France, people will have to be very careful as to whom they give their estate to. It is the tax that will be the important thing to look into, rather than simply feeling the liberty to leave to who so ever one wants.

[lindal1000]

A lot of French people are very unhappy with the inheritance situation in France and do their utmost to get round it. France is no more family orientated than anywhere else from what I can see. My generation were perhaps more traditional but amongst the younger people marriage is very unpopular .. our neighbours children only got married once their kids were in their teens, my colleagues at work have several kids their partners but choose not to get married. I do believe Hollande is not married to the mother of his children. We know of several French people desperately trying to spend every penny before they go as they don't want to leave it to their kids..where there's a will there's a way... no pun intended!

[parsnips]

[quote user="lindal1000"]A lot of French people are very unhappy with the inheritance situation in France and do their utmost to get round it. France is no more family orientated than anywhere else from what I can see. My generation were perhaps more traditional but amongst the younger people marriage is very unpopular .. our neighbours children only got married once their kids were in their teens, my colleagues at work have several kids their partners but choose not to get married. I do believe Hollande is not married to the mother of his children. We know of several French people desperately trying to spend every penny before they go as they don't want to leave it to their kids..where there's a will there's a way... no pun intended![/quote]

Hi,

     Many of the french people I know are desperately ignorant of their own inheritance laws and taxes, and don't act in their own best interests.

   Having made a study of the subject for many years - starting for purely self- interested reasons , I can safely say  that with sufficient knowledge "reconstituted" families can obtain just about any  outcome they wish.   Using changes of marriage regimes , adapting the "regime legal" , using various ways of purchasing their houses , using the "legs residuel", and above all , using french Life Assurance plans , the permutations are almost unlimited .

   I have to say that not all notaires are either up-to-date , or capable of  providing solutions adapted to english expectations.   

[idun]

Wow, I am truly disturbed by this thread now.

[lindal1000]

Thing is, if you plan carefully and leave a will you can ensure that your money goes where you want it to go. Even in the example you quoted earlier Idun, you can leave your money to your spouse but also make plans to ensure that once they die, any remaining parts of your estate go to who you want it to go to.

The other thing to consider if you are not French is that if you have children from whom you are estranged, and have no contact with, then I don't see how anyone in France would ever need to know about them. It would only be an issue if they got to hear that you died and came looking.

[Hereford]

Lindal1000: I am sorry but I think that your second paragraph is a very dangerous thing to suggest. When we saw the Notaire last week re my mother's affairs we were asked specifically how many children she had.  Even though my parents had a French marriage contract so that everything passes automatically to my father the Notaire explained that he had to write to each and every child to tell them this.  He also needs birth, marriage certs and passport copies from every child and those children will have to sign the deed he prepares.

The thought of deliberately lying to a Notaire is not something I would like to contemplate.  I always work on the basis that if one would not do it in one's own country then definitely don't do it in a foreign one!

Mrs H

[lindal1000]

Well I wasn't thinking of someone who knows where their kids are. An example I've used before: a friend of my sister was conned into fathering a child when he was a young man (one night stand, she said she was on the pill). He paid child support for this child but never saw her, has no idea where she lives or even if she's still alive. I don't even know if his wife knows of her existence. Telling a notaire you think you may still have a child somewhere but you don't know where and you don't want to know would achieve absolutely nothing.

[idun]

I suppose in this case then maybe the spouse may not know about all the children, and if widowed could answer honestly.

I would not lie to a notaire, that I think, would be fraud?

I am still very disturbed by this and do not believe that it is that 'easy' to get done as one wants. As I said, we have seen a solicitor within the past year and discussed step children and asked every question we could think of. I accompanied someone who needed to ask these questions.

And France is France, now it is all so much fairer, then I have few qualms about the system. Nobody is made to move to France? The french often don't need to know much about their inheritence rights, they probably have a bit of an idea and family is family. At least the blood line is.

We were not the first people that existed,  and our children will probably not be the last and they'll have theirs and so it goes on, maybe we should be thankful that we are about the first generation where so many of us have had such bloody good lives and have money and own things. It was never like that for working people,  because I know darned well in my family and my husband's that life, say a 100 years ago was VERY HARD, and they only just managed to keep food on the table, most of the time, never mind this sort of stuff.

[lindal1000]

All the more reason to liquidate all your assets and spend it all! Which is what some French people we know are doing..and actually spending it on kids by buying things for them. The French guy who owns the local Chateau that used to be a nursing home, has fallen out with all his kids and selling off what he can for whatever he can get . I think we are probably the first property owning generation, and will probably be the last for a while as well so maybe it is more complicated.

Neither OH or myself have kids and we have have one niece between us who doesn't need the money, so we are trying to make sure we spend it all before we both go.

[andyh4]

Lindal1000 wrote

Thing is, if you plan carefully and leave a will you can ensure that your money goes where you want it to go. Even in the example you quoted earlier Idun, you can leave your money to your spouse but also make plans to ensure that once they die, any remaining parts of your estate go to who you want it to go to.

The other thing to consider if you are not French is that if you have children from whom you are estranged, and have no contact with, then I don't see how anyone in France would ever need to know about them. It would only be an issue if they got to hear that you died and came looking

Unquote

Except that our notaire was very instant that all children were recorded.

I think you could lie and maybe get away with it.

I think it would leave your estate open to massive and expensive integration, which would benefit no one but the lawyers.