Access

[Angie]

We have a very long driveway access. At the bottom, on one side only, our neighbours boundary adjoins this driveway for about 4 metres. We have a fence at this point which was there when we bought the house and the neighbour has no right of way here. However, we have always allowed him to step over the fence in order to do painting etc. on that side of his house with no problems. However we have learnt that while we were in the UK in the summer the neighbor removed part of the fence to allow a digger to go into his property to construct a hardstanding. He has replaced the fence but looking over at his side it is clear he is constructing some sort of driveway on his side. We have also now learnt that the property is up for sale. Should we contact the agent to make sure the neighbor isn't giving the impression that vehicular access is permitted across our land? The boundary is quite clearly marked on our "deeds" so hopefully there won't be any problem and I don't want to be un-neighbourly, but feel if I don't say anything now it could escalate to becoming a full shared driveway. We have also only just had the whole drive resurfaced!

[Gardian]

Nobody has replied yet, so I'll give it a go!

First of all - forget about asking the agent. Even if they know (which is doubtful), you wouldn't get a straight answer.

I find myself wondering why your neighbour would want to create an alternative access? Presumably they already have vehicular access to their house? Maybe its all entirely innocent, but then why would somebody who has their house on the market be undertaking the creation of a driveway?

All this leads up to the obvious suggestion. Ask your neighbours. Explain your concerns and make it as clear as possible, without alienating them, that they are not free to do as they like. If their 'activity' is entirely innocent, then they'll just put you down as fussy Brits, but no serious harm done. If however they did have other plans, you could well torpedo them without recourse to difficulty.

[alittlebitfrench]

As said, just ask out of curiosity what they are building. Could be anything.

They have no right over your land so whatever they have built is not a driveway.

BTW....are they English or French ?

[Angie]

Its a bit difficult getting hold of them. They are French but live miles away and they just employ people to come and do jobs for them - we always seem to miss their visits! Actually they don't have vehicular access to their property. It was originally a tumble down "hut" which they renovated about 10 years ago but they used it as a pied a terre for the family to visit for get-togethers in the summer. It is slightly raised up from the road so they have to go up a few steps to the entrance but no car could make it from the road side. Our drive on the other hand is flat and as I say, abuts their property. As long as they don't have or could obtain right of access that would be good enough for me. Have spoken to the Mairie who confirm they have applied for modification to the property, but that all seems to be internal works and this "hardstanding/ terrace". Shall just have to keep my eyes peeled for their next visit. Thanks all for your advice

[Gardian]

Given what you say, perhaps talking to the agent would be the best plan.

They'll deny all knowledge in all likelihood, but you could use them as a conduit for communication with your neighbours. I sense that you mightn't be unhappy about access for vehicles for the short distance involved (and if it ever went to Court, any refusal on your part might be viewed as unreasonable), but you just don't want there to be an assumption that they can do as they like.

Try playing 'hard ball' with the agents and assess their reaction. IMO, that would be better than waiting for something to happen which is too late to stop.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Gardian"] I sense that you mightn't be unhappy about access for vehicles for the short distance involved (and if it ever went to Court, any refusal on your part might be viewed as unreasonable), but you just don't want there to be an assumption that they can do as they like. Try playing 'hard ball' with the agents and assess their reaction. IMO, that would be better than waiting for something to happen which is too late to stop.[/quote]

 

I am sorry but I have to challenge that, despite the fact that most French dont seem to have any notion of private property when it suits them (as I know all too well) they are completely god fearing of (any intervention of) the law.

 

If they dont have a servitude, and that is the key word for the OP, then they have no right whatsoever, any transgression will be upheld by the courts or the gendarmerie and there is no question of someone being held by the law to be acting unreasonably from refusing a violation of their domicile.

 

If the something to happen which cannot be stopped is their crossing of your land it can absolutely be stopped, if its their building of a soi disant "terrace" then no it cant be stopped if they have autorisation which the Mairie seems to confirm they have.

 

If it were me I would contact them and ask them what they plan to use said "terrace" for, if they didn't mention vehicular access then I would, I would say "you do realise that you do not have a servitude to cross our land dont you!" Unless we are talking doasyoulikeys and even then non French ones that will be the end of it.

[alittlebitfrench]

I said what you said Chancer in two sentences. LOL

[Chancer]

And they made sense as well!

 

It must have been a real strain for you, did you need to lie down afterwards?

[Gardian]

You're quite right Chancer and I apologise if I've misled the OP.

However, (and honestly, this isn't me wanting to have the last word on the subject), I have close experience of a Court upholding someone's right to reasonable access to their plot of land. My neighbour appealed to the Departmental Tribunal d'Instance ....... and lost ! It cost him a packet. OK, there was no servitude involved, but you get my drift.

Whatever, the suggestion that Angie talks to the agents (which was her own original instinct) seems to me to be the best course of action. As I said, better resolved early on, than having to get involved in legal nasties later. Whether Angie decides to refuse access (if that's what is on the cards) or agree to some 'arrangement', is obviously entirely up to her. I can see the point however that if the latter course, you risk 'giving them a centimetre and they'll take a kilometre'.

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="Chancer"]

And they made sense as well!

 

It must have been a real strain for you, did you need to lie down afterwards?

[/quote]

@ Chancer

I have recently had holes lasered/drilled into my eyes and I now have new glasses.I can see again !!!

Welcome to the new ALBF. He may start to make sense. Well probably not. lol

[Chancer]

Gardian.

 

What was the reasonable access in this instance, that they could not get to their property without walking through your land?

 

That they could not maintain their property without standing on your land, erecting a ladder, scaffolding etc? Passing materials by wheelbarrow etc or removing waste, cuttings etc?

 

That they could not get a vehicle onto their property without crossing your land?

 

It sounds like the OP is concerned about the last case.

[EuroTrash]

Hmm.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2040

"Le droit de passage est automatique lorsqu'une propriété est enclavée.

Cela peut être le cas par exemple si vous êtes obligé de passer par le terrain du voisin pour accéder à votre maison qui n'est pas desservie par la voie publique.

Le propriétaire du terrain enclavé (le fonds dominant) a alors le droit de passer sur le terrain de son voisin (le fonds servant) et sous réserve de :

prendre le passage le plus court par rapport à la voie publique,

passer par l'endroit le moins dommageable pour le propriétaire du fonds servant,

et verser au voisin une indemnité proportionnée au dommage occasionné par le passage (bruit ou tout autre préjudice). L'indemnité est déterminée à l'amiable ou par le juge du tribunal de grande instance."

If the only practical way for a person to access their property from the public road is across your land, you can't refuse them access.

[Kong]

If the neighbours are already living there presumably they have access by other means, in which case this will not apply?

[EuroTrash]

"If the neighbours are already living there presumably they have access by other means, in which case this will not apply? "

That's true. I suppose I assumed they didn't because if they already have a driveway, why would they be making another one. But rereading the OP the only time the neighbour has stepped onto the OP's side is to do maintenance so presumably they have vehicular access via a different route.

Ignore previous post.

[andyh4]

The laws regarding access to enclaved property are superficially simple but in fact quite complex (now why is that not a surprise).

Yes someone who has enclaved land does have right of access across the surrounding property, but this must be via the shortest practical route to a place of public access (road).

It could be therefore that the current access is not the shortest route and that the landowner is objecting and that the shortest route is over Angie's land.

IMHO there is no reason why an estate agent would know the situation regarding an adjacent property to one he sold (unless he also sold that property). Therefore unless he is a particularly helpful sort I do not see him being necessarily a great help.

As others have said, first port of call is a polite enquiry of the neighbour about what is going on. It may be that this is mothing more than a grand patio and therefore a storm in a teacup.

[alittlebitfrench]

The neighbour already has access to their property.

What the neighbour could claim is that the servitude to that part of the property (where the potential drive is being built) has been agreed between them and the OP, i.e, he could claim that he has being using it for years to access that part of the property. Which is true it seems. In that case he could have a legal right !!!! But with a car ????

Servitudes don't have to be written in law. They can develop over time.

Ask the neighbour what he is building. If that is their game then you have to put a stop to it right now.

[Gardengirl]

I would definitely make all efforts to find out what is going on, via the neighbour as well as making enquiries of anyone else who has knowledge and experience in these matters.

Establishing that he has had access for some time over your property, maybe by removing your fence and replacing it, would presumably give his property a plus with prospective buyers.