Carte de sejour appointment - keep or cancel?

[Tartiflette]

For those people who cannot get CdS appointments until later in 2019, you probably think the title of this post is downright insane but hear me out! My husband and I have only recently established residency in France despite having owned a property here for three years and spent several months a year in France in previous years. We have a UK-based company which provides the majority of our income however I have recently set up a micro-entreprise (I have just this week received all the documentation etc). I have my CdS appointment next week, however having heard all the horror stories of what is required etc. I'm wondering whether I actually have the supporting documentation to prove income etc.(although I have done work in the last two weeks under my micro-entreprise I won't have any evidence of income in my account for several weeks. Currently appointments are available at my local prefecture for late February when I will have had more income through my micro-entreprise so would I be more successful obtaining the Cds if I cancel my current appointment and book one for later? I also have no Avis d'impots as we are not required to submit tax returns until next May.

Most people I talk to regarding CdS appointments have been here for years and therefore have much more supporting documentation. Has anyone else in a similar situation applied for the CdS (ie. only recently resident) and what was your experience? Any advice would be much appreciated.

[alittlebitfrench]

I have been here for two decades.

Don't waste your time getting a CDS.

The UK will remain in the EU. If it does not (which unlikely) just apply for the card that the French want you to apply for.

The way things are going in France I would be more worried about a Frexit vote.

NO POINT CDS !!

Got it !!!

PS....I would be more worried about your UK company and how you account for that income in France.

PPS...what horror stories ???

[BritinBretagne]

Take what you have to the appointment and explain the facts. If you’ve recently arrived, you’ve recently arrived and cannot be expected to magic paperwork. They will tell you if you want any supporting information and will probably only issue you with a one year CdS card in the first instance only.

[woolybanana]

When I went in with a ton of papers I got the impression that they were anxious to simplify the whole procedure and happy to explain everything they needed.

So, do go in with what you have and get their guidance if needed.

But the Pas de Calais is very experienced in these matters too.

[nomoss]

I suggest you follow the others' advice and ignore the resident soothsayer.

[woolybanana]

Surely, ‘doomsayer’??

[EuroTrash]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to point out that for self employed people the prefecture is supposed to verify that it's a "regular, genuine and effective" business ("Justificatif d’activité : tout document relatif à l’exercice régulier, effectif et durable de l’activité") as opposed to an "activité tellement réduite qu’elle se présente comme purement marginale et accessoire" i.e. a hobby business. If you haven't actually banked any money yet, it's hard to see how the prefecture is going to be able to make that decision. Saying that, since it would in any case be a one-year CDS, they might issue it and review your accounts after the first year.

Also, this:

"PS....I would be more worried about your UK company and how you account for that income in France."

You say "We have a UK-based company which provides the majority of our income" - is this business being run from your home in France and if so does URSSAF know all about it? If it is and they don't, then as ALBF says, the last thing you want is the prefecture enquiring into what other household income you have.

[alittlebitfrench]

hmmm....

If you are deriving an income from a UK based company whilst living in France you need to declare that income otherwise you will could go to jail for tax evasion.

What I am saying is that income needs to be taxed in France.

If the business is being run from France well then you would have to set a business structure in France for it to be legal. I think ??? Well yes.....I can't see how it would work otherwise.

You can't do this as an AE....or whatever it is called now.

Sticky wicket.

A french accountant might be a good idea.

I certainly would not start the CDS proces just yet.

[nomoss]

Maybe I don't have a suspicious nature, but it didn't occur to me that the OP and husband, having established residency and owned a

property here for three years, had not already familiarised themselves with the French taxation system before making the decision to move here.

When the OP said “I'm wondering whether I actually have the supporting

documentation to prove income", I assumed they were referring to the income from the UK-based company which provides the majority of it, not to that from a week old micro-enterprise.

I think it's just another wind-up.

[EuroTrash]

It's more about cotisations than income tax.

Everyone who lives and works in France (except posted workers and there are different arrangements for them) has to contribute to the French social security system, this is French law.

There are various ways to do this, either through setting up your own business and paying cotisations to URSSAF through that, or you can be an employee of the business in which case the business pays the employer contributions and deducts the employee contributions from your salary. A UK company doesn't need to set up a French business structure as such in order to employ workers in France, but it does need to register itself and its employees with URSSAF. So one way or another, if you are resident here then URSSAF needs to know about all the income-generating work you do while your bum is physically in France, because any money you earn that URSSAF doesn't know about, is earned "on the black".

Maybe the OP has all this sorted, but the fact that she seems to be relying on a brand new micro entreprise to prove she is exercising freedom of movement correctly, kinda suggests not. Or she would be going along with a new siret number but a trading history from the UK to prove that it's a viable business, or alternatively, with her employment contract with the company and maybe a first payslip.

There's also the issue that in France one person is not allowed to run two separate businesses. Again, maybe this is not the case, maybe the UK business is her husband's, but "We have a UK-based company" rather suggest that she's a partner in it. However, running an ME and being employed by her husband's business wouldn't be a problem.

None of this is strictly to do with applying for a carte de séjour but it is all to do with living legally in France, and if in fact they haven't got all the household ducks in a row yet, personally I would think twice about popping my head above the parapet until I had. So what with that, if it does apply to the OP, and having zero income to show, I would take an appointment in February, if then even. But, I know I'm a more than averagely risk averse person.

EDIT - crossed with Nomoss' post. You may be right Nomoss but in that case I don't understand how this micro entreprise fits into the picture.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET said ...."A UK company doesn't need to set up a French business structure as such in order to employ workers in France".

But they would have to be employed on a French contract and all the intricacies that involves. Or rather nightmares. 35 hr week. and everything else. You would have to provide ticket resturants LOL.

Not sure how that would be done. You would have to employ a company to draw up the contract/contracts I guess.

[EuroTrash]

@ALBF

"But they would have to be employed on a French contract and all the intricacies that involves. Or rather nightmares. 35 hr week. and everything else. You would have to provide ticket resturants LOL."

- Exactly.

"Not sure how that would be done. You would have to employ a company to draw up the contract/contracts I guess."

- No, URSSAF make it easy. They have a special platform for foreign firms employing workers in France

https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/home/employeur/creer/quelle-urssaf-pour-votre-entrepr/firmes-etrangeres.html

which takes you through it step by step. I believe it provides contract templates and everything, and I think there's a service you can use to generate payslips as well, not sure if that's a paid service or if it's free.

Off topic but I see Macron has increased SMIC by 100€ a month and is telling employers it won't cost them anything. However I suspect foreign employers won't benefit from whatever compensatory measures Macron is thinking of so it will cost them 100€ + the extra social charges. Ouch.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]  ...................You may be right Nomoss but in that case I don't understand how this micro entreprise fits into the picture.[/quote]

I'm just considering the number of posters with dodgy questions who never return, even after several (usually the same) people take the time and trouble to respond.

I'm thinking about the property tycoon wanting insurance for when he can't find a tenant, the clueless enthusiast with the rare old moped, and the globetotter trying to identify the place in a picture so they can go on holiday there.

Not to mention the optimistic entrepreneur trying to sell certificates [:D]

Just saying ...................

[EuroTrash]

@Nomoss

LOL. Yes there have been some good ones lately haven't there.

I suppose I've switched my troll-sensors to a low setting because inevitably there are Brits trying to cobble together last minute plans for getting their hands on cartes de séjour before Brexit, so you would expect a certain amount of wishful thinking and if they are genuine questions it seems unkind not to try and help. The property tycoon certainly did set a new high in wishful thinking.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"] ...........Yes there have been some good ones lately haven't there. ...............[/quote]

I was thinking about a dodgy occasional poster here with too much time on their hands who frequently used to do something similar on another forum.

[alittlebitfrench]

I can't see how you can employ people on a French contract from your house without changing the status of your house into a business.

Also another thing, those employees will subject to visits from the 'medecine de travail'.

I have never seen a 'medecine de travail' van parked outside someone's house before. lol

Going back to Mr Macron. he also said that a year end bonus would not be taxed. Fine....but...

....what stops an employer employing someone on a salary of 20 k euros and then quietly give them a bonus of 10 k euros at the end of the year ????

[Patf]

"What I am saying is that income needs to be taxed in France."

ALBF that is a classic [:D]

[EuroTrash]

@ALBF

"I can't see how you can employ people on a French contract from your house without changing the status of your house into a business."

Because being an employee of your own company is not the same as being self employed/non salarié. It's an entirely different statut.

If the business is set up as a personne morale, ie a separate entity, it has its own siège sociale, its own accounts, its own money which the directors can't embezzle, They only get salary and benefits specified in their employment contract. The business submits its own tax returns and pays its own taxes, it might even pay its tax in a different country. The salaried director/employees declare their salary on their personal tax return in the country where they live and work.

As opposed to a travailleur indépendent/non salarié where the business is a personne physique, ie the person is the business. They're not employees so they don't have any employment contract. They declare all the business income on their personal tax return and that money is their money to spend as they wish.. And if they work from home, then that's the address that the business will be registered to and CFE (business tax) will automatically be charged on that address, if applicable.

I think the confusion comes from the UK having this vague term "self employed" that people use for all kind of different statuses, and it conveniently makes it sound as if you're an employee and not an employee at the same time. Calling it non salarié, non salaried, makes it easier to understand the difference, I think. You get people saying things like "I work self employed for a UK company" - no you don't, either you're a salarié of that company or you're a non salarié and in that case you don't work for a UK company; that company might be one of your clients but there must not be any link of subordination or anything to suggest an employer/employee relationship.

Re your final point, I don't know. I'm not convinced he's thought it through.

[Cathar Tours]

If the OP has a Ltd company in the UK they will have an accountant for their books. They will also be drawing a salary and therefore will get a P60 every year which they can use to prove they have paid tax in the UK. That is what they need to declare.

At the end of the day is it not more about you are who you say you are, your covered for healthcare, you are contributing to the system and that you have sufficient funds so as not to be drain on the French social system.

When I helped my father I didn't find any of the documentation difficult to obtain, we just followed the list of requirements they sent him and it was easy. His comment when it was all done was how simple it was and that he didn't need my help because he could have managed on his own.

[EuroTrash]

@CT

"They will also be drawing a salary and therefore will get a P60 every year which they can use to prove they have paid tax in the UK. That is what they need to declare."

But I don't see how this is going to prove that they're correctly exercising freedom of movement in France in order to get a CDS. All it would prove to me is that they used to live in the UK, and possibly still do. Which of those documents proves that they have now moved to France, have exited the UK system and entered the French system and are now residing here as workers?.

"At the end of the day is it not more about you are who you say you are, your covered for healthcare, you are contributing to the system" - yes but how does drawing a salary in the UK cover you for healthcare in France and contribute to the French system?

"and that you have sufficient funds so as not to be drain on the French social system." This bit doesn't apply to workers, only to inactifs/retirees.

[Cathar Tours]

I was under the impression that if they had worked fort wo consecutive years paying tax and NI then they will have an S1 that will cover them up to a maximum of 2 years anywhere else in the EU.

There is a bit about living with your family in France but working back in the UK here.

https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/public-services/health/getting-health-cover/living-abroad

[EuroTrash]

"I was under the impression that if they had worked fort wo consecutive years paying tax and NI then they will have an S1 that will cover them up to a maximum of 2 years anywhere else in the EU."

I think you're thinking of the "posted worker" status. It's a bit more complicated than that. First HMRC has to agree to issue the S1. Posted workers are supposed to be on temporary secondment for a period of up to two years so if it looks like a permanent move, the chances are they will reject the application. Secondly, in the case of employees the employer has to notify France of the seconded worker via the SIPSI system. France doesn't like posted workers because of the risk of "social dumping" and it comes down like a ton of bricks if it finds a posted worker that hasn't been notified to it and doesn't dot all the i's and cross the t's. Ask me how I know...France's rules about posted workers/travailleurs détaché here

https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F32160

and there's quite a good blog about France's attitude here

https://ecipe.org/blog/posted-workers-in-the-eu-social-dumping-vs-competitive-advantage/

But the major issue with that is that it's an EU arrangement, and after Brexit it's very possible that the UK will no longer be included in the scheme. I guess it would be an EU decision but Macron certainly won't encourage it. It's not known yet where posted workers stand as regards residence rights. Posted workers and cross border workers are generally regarded as the two statuses most at risk from Brexit.

[EuroTrash]

"There is a bit about living with your family in France but working back in the UK here.

https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/public-services/health/getting-health-cover/living-abroad"

If they physically return to the UK to carry out their activities, that is cross border worker or frontalier. There's no time limit for frontaliers, it can be a permanent arrangement, but again it's an EU arrangement. And you do need to spend all or nearly all of your working time physically on UK soil.

[Tartiflette]

Wow, in writing this post I certainly opened a can of worms. Some of the posts actually offended me as they implied that I am somehow "dodgy" when I have just set up a legal and legitimate business structure in France! But thanks for some of the more useful advice.

[EuroTrash]

"Some of the posts actually offended me as they implied that I am somehow "dodgy""

If that's mine that you're referring to, I apologise, no offence intended. All I was saying was that most people who move to France with a UK business in tow find that there is period of several months at least when they're betwixt and between. That is pretty much inevitable and there is nothing dodgy about it, but IMHO it would be safer to wait until everything is fully in place in France with all the loose ends tied up before applying for anything here. French admin is surprisingly joined up.