Questions on Renting out one's house

[I1]

I'm thinking about travelling around Europe next summer (for an extended time) and considering renting out my house whilst away. It would be for e.g. 6 months and not "holiday type let".

However it may raise a load of issues.

Ignoring tax on income and legal contracts, does anybody know if:

Does the house electical wiring and gas installation need to be inspected and approved. I recon they are ok but the electrical installation does not conform to current regulations. Getting it upgraded to current regulations would cost quite a bit.

I understand most house French rentals are on an unfurnished basis. Is it viable to rent furnished.

I have a workshop (lathe, circular saws, etc.) which I would not want to remove and cannot block off (as its a through route through the barns). Do the dangers of such equipment cause problems if somebody renting injured themselves on it.

Given that French rental costs are relatively low, I was thinking that, by the time one has paid tax on income, dealt with the "grief factors", etc. it might all just be not worth doing.

Any thoughts ?

[Alexis]

I would go for the not worth the grief.

What if they don't pay the rent?

What if they don't leave when planned?

What if they nick all your tools?

Are you going to get their names on the EDF, water bills etc?  Perhaps come back to find that the emersion has been on all the time etc.

Six months and nobody touched the garden.....

Certainly, if you have doubts about the electricity and gas, I wouldn't risk it. 

Of course, you could just fall lucky and rent to someone doing their house up who needs only six months to do it....lucky sod! 

[Paolo]

I would do likewise - look into the market of people who are either looking for a place and need to rent for a while, or those that have just bought and need somewhere to live while building work goes on.

I recently looked long and hard on the internet for a house available for a one-year rent in the south. I didn't find anything I would want to subject my family to. There are probably Brits doing the same for a house in your area.

If you did find a nice responsible family they could keep your garden alive too.

Then again, your electrical problem, and the possibility of children chopping themselves in half in your workshop, might put me off altogether.

Paolo

[Val_2]

I tend to agree with the "its not worth it" reply. Six months is not a long enough rental to attract anyone serious/professional who has a job as they usually want to be in for a couple of years minimum. There is the problem of squatters too and trying to evict people who havn't paid the rent,this can drag on for years and years before you get your home back as the authorities here tend to be on the squatters side especially in the winter months. The insurance question too as you have many obvious problems like the workshop where theft and injury could occur,to say nothing if the electrics went wrong by your own admission they are not a standard installation. I would personally shut the place up as secure as possible,removing anything really valuable and leave a key with a trusted friend/neighbour to check weekly or if you have a relative who might housesit is another solution and six months will soon pass anyway.

[I1]

Many thanks for opinions (which seem to make me think I was going along the right lines anyway).  The electrics thing is not that I consider my electical wiring dangerous, just that standards have changed for new installations.  I know in the UK, as a landlord you often need to comply with recent regulations rather that those in force when the system was installed.

I know when I sold my house in the UK, the purchaser had every survey possible carried out, including getting an electrician in to inspect the wiring (the house had been competele re-wired and inspected by the electricity board 12 years before) - and there were problems not because it was unsafe but because it did not comply with the latest standards (e.g. type of residual current breaker was not the type you would fit these days, etc.).  Apparently electricians, etc. can only inspect against the latest standards, not against those in force when the system was installed (also they cannot pass opinion about good/bad, safe/unsafe - just pass/fail).  I actually had 4 different surveyors visit all of whom found only one or two trivial things wrong but it caused long delays and problems, hence my reservations about doing anything that might require inspections, etc.

[Jmp]

I don’t know if I more disturbed that you’ve even contemplated it or by the response you’ve already received.

 

Why the talk of the cost involved in ensuring that your electrical system conforms to current safety standards. I think by “grief factors” you are referring to the hassle you might encounter rather than the real grief experienced by people who have lost loved ones because some body didn’t ensure that their property was safe.

 

I would hate to think that French law was any less clear than English law in that everybody has an obligation to ensure that their property is free from dangers such as wiring which does not conform to current safety regulations and that lathes are not easily accessible to anybody whether they are visitors to your home or tenants.

 

My advice to you is don’t do it. Advice to anybody else who is concerned with law, insurance etc. is to make sure that your property conforms to current safety regulations. For the remainder (majority I hope) I’m sure that as responsible people, caring for others wellbeing, you already go beyond what is law and have smoke detectors etc.

[Pixietoadstool]

........urrrrrgh try and find somewhere to buy a smoke detector in France...........

We have them ... bought in UK and the local firemen think they are dangerous!!

So should we follow the latest trends or use our common sense ... or what?

Please don't criticise if you are not prepared to walk a mile in the other person's shoes!

Life is not quite as simple as you seem to make out in your posting!

 

 

[Jmp]

Pixietoadstool

I have tried buying smoke detectors in France and agree it’s impossible. I spent a whole day doing the rounds of Castorama and the like in search of smoke detectors before letting our holiday homes. I had read somewhere that they are not allowed to be marketed in France as they contain a minute amount of radioactive isotope. I too bought mine in the UK and would not have considered letting the properties without them. The day I installed them I was listening to the local radio station and heard the news that 2 sisters had died of smoke inhalation when their neighbour in the apartment below had a fire. The flames caused very little damage but the smoke killed 2 people while they slept.

 

I’m not quite sure what you mean by following latest trends and I certainly wouldn’t suggest that life is simple. You have taken the trouble to install smoke detectors which makes me believe that you are a responsible person. I have trouble even walking in my own shoes let alone any one elses but my father (a very experienced wood machinist) lost part of his hand in a wood machine, along with his livelihood.

 

My post wasn’t about smoke detectors and I wasn’t criticising – it was more of a plea. To expose people to electrics which don’t conform to current safety legislation and lathes, circular saws etc. and then discuss how troublesome tenants can be and that maybe I1 can find a nice responsible family that could keep a garden alive just took my breath away.

[Pixietoadstool]

... OK ... sorry!

[I1]

Quote: I don’t know if I more disturbed that you’ve even contemplated it or by the response you’ve already received.

Modern/current standards are quite difficult for me to understand in that, standards change or are different often for what might appear no good (or safety related) reason.  for example, in the UK you must install "ring type" wiring, "spur type" wiring normally not being permitted.  This is presumably for safety reasons (otherwise why require it).  However, in France you are not allowed to install "ring type" wiring and must install "spur type wiring" again presumably for safety reasons.  Both countries have similar technical capabilities, experience, etc. so who is wrong.  If I have "ring type" wiring am I living in daily danger (or vice versa) ?

Around 1990 (maybe a bit earlier) the UK changed their wiring standards to require a 1.5mm earth cable rather than a 1mm earth cable.  Many installations carried out before this change will have only a 1mm earth cable which does not comply with the current standards.  Installations with a 1mm earth wire would need to be re-wired to comply with the current regulations - messy, expensive plasterwork, carpets, etc. never quite the same again.  However, people living in such houses are not in daily danger, do not have the fire brigade on 24hr standby, etc.

I would not mind betting that any electrical installation carried out more than a couple of years ago does not fully comply with current standards - they are changing all the time.

My workshop has pretty good wiring, residual current breakers, lights on sperate circuit to power tools/sockets (so should a saw cut a cable you are not also plunged into darkness), lathes, etc. have proper large red off buttons, sunken green on buttons, the entire workshop power (excluding lights) can be cut by a single switch mounted about adult head height, etc.  However, as with all such things, how safe these measures are depends on how you use them.  The single switch for the power is only any use if it is used.  I might be good about switching it off but would a tenant ?  and if they were not, would I be liable.

Workshops are dangerous places - sharp tools, etc.  Anybody with children and a workshop needs to take care.  My question relates to my liability should a tenant not take care and the worse happen.

Unfortunately (to my knowledge) when standards change, they just change.  In the computer industry, a software update is normally marked "critical" or "non-critical" (or similar) indicating the importance of the change.

Standards include both safety standards and general practice (i.e. rules as to how things should be done to make sure people generally do the same thing).

Unfortunately, without writing war and peace it is not possible to fully and completely describe every details of every aspect of what you are talking about - and then you get those who "jump to conclusions".  I am not being critical of safety standards.  However, installation standards and safety standards are not always the same.

I AM NOT A NASTY PERSON WHO WOULD RISK OTHERS LIVES TO SAVE A FEW PENCE AND RESENT THE IMPLICATION THAT I AM.

 

[Coco]

Disregarding whether or not the rental is a viable proposition, but responding only to the safety of the power tools and their accessibility question - could you not just remove all plugs from the tools?  Or is that too simple a solution?  I know the the tenants could rewire them but at least you have the peace of mind that you immobilised them from the point of view of the kids having access to them and then the onus would be on the tenant if they have reactivated them.

[I1]

I've noticed it on forums - there often seem to be a group of people who "assume the worst of others" and will then be openly critical/nasty about it.  When limited to asking questions or expressing opinions in a couple of paragraphs, such people cannot have all the facts.

To my mind the forums are for people to help each other by exchange of information, thoughts, etc. and which should be done in a positive way friendly.

As a recipient of such a comment in this instance I have a choise to either ignore it, put it down to "some people are just like that" or take the matter further.  The implication is clearly stated that I am not a "responsible person" (For the remainder (majority I hope) I’m sure that as responsible people) is pretty rude and offensive.

[Coco]

Disregarding whether or not the rental is a viable proposition, but responding only to the safety of the power tools and their accessibility question - could you not just remove all plugs from the tools?  Or is that too simple a solution?  I know the the tenants could rewire them but at least you have the peace of mind that you immobilised them from the point of view of the kids having access to them and then the onus would be on the tenant if they have reactivated them.

[I1]

Quote: I would hate to think that French law was any less clear than English law in that everybody has an obligation to ensure that their property is free from dangers such as wiring which does not conform to current safety regulations

I assume that JMP has more knowledge and experience of the law and electrical practice than I do as I was told (by a professional electrician in UK) a year ago that there is no legal obligation (nor safety issues) related to complying with current standards. current stndards apply to new installations only. However, electricians can only test against current standards and not effective standards when the system was installed. Also, they cannot pass comment of safety due to the potential liability of such comments.

Were it law that you had to comply with current electrical standards people would need to be spending a fortune on a continual and ongoing basis as the standards are changing all the time. I cannot help but feel that this cannot be the case, though will happily admit to being wrong as JMP obviously has superior knowledge to make such critical statements.

[Owens88]

Good luck

I rent out in the UK and in France.

Lets face it ALL  standards move on and what is merely recommended one week becomes a 'necessary standard for our body' another week and an absolute sometime later. We can't always win, just do our best. I think your post implied a commitment to doing ones best.

In France I let out for holidays and have also been entranced by 'long lets'. I have an enquiry for a long let now (as our place is in fact a home, not merely a holiday resting room) and I have my advisors tracking down the legal aspects of the tenancy. (BTW any advice posted here would be welcomed).

You MUST make sure your insurance covers you. Probably check your mortgagors as well. Don't assume the reaction will be negative. An empty property carries hightened risk anyway.

 

For many reasons you might consider using a lettings agent.

Bonne Courage.

 

 

 

[Georgina]

[quote]I've noticed it on forums - there often seem to be a group of people who "assume the worst of others" and will then be openly critical/nasty about it. When limited to asking questions or expressing o...[/quote]

Yeh, go get 'em  1I.  You are so right.

Georgina

[Russethouse]

I1, Reading your original post it looks very much as if you are considering letting a house with possibly dubious electrics and dangerous machinery. That may not be the impression you wanted to give, but its hardly a surprise that you got some 'short' answers!

If you had a letting agent in I'm sure they would advise you about both, and suitable action if required.

[I1]

My comments on the electrics relate to current and previous standards. EDF will not connect up a supply that has not been inspected/approved, so when it was installed it complied with the standards at that time. Regulations do not always relate to safety – I clearly referred to “regulations” not “safety regulations” yet one person jumped to the “assume the worst” conclusion (in a quite strong way as well). I also stated that I considered they were ok.

In any domestic environment there are loads of potentially dangerous things – some of which are regarded and dangerous and others (which are equally dangerous) are not “taken so seriously”. My workshop has nothing in it that you cannot buy in any tool shop. In practice, a bench mounted circular saw that is disconnected is probably safer than a small chisel or screwdriver or kitchen knife (as a child does not pick it up, play with at nor run around with it).

When I sold my house in the UK, I had loads of grief because the purchaser had every inspection/survey possible. The electrical one could only test against current standards (which it did not meet). Their report cannot make any inferences about safety (apparently due to liability against the inspectors), and can only report as to meeting the regulations in effect on the day the inspection was carried out. When chatting to the guy doing the inspection he freely said there was absolutely nothing wrong with the system and it was perfectly safe.

In one response I was clearly accused of being somebody who puts financial gain before consideration of the lives and others safety. This accusation was totally unjustified and quite offensive. When I posted to point out that I was not such a person I have received no apology.

Bye

[Russethouse]

Yes,I had already read the posts, thats why I suggested allowing a letting agent in to give your house the 'once over' and let you know the situation re renting.