A year in France

[NickP]

[quote user="idun"]It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. 

I didn't say that did I? Was it irony? 

[/quote]

 No I did! I give up, you are obviously  determined to say things that have nothing to do with the comments or thoughts that other people are trying to put across. I would respectfully suggest that you  read other members posts and digest them before jumping onto your keyboard and pursuing your private agendas.  

[cooperlola]

Stan (are you still there or have you lost the will to live?) - getting out is relatively straight forward in that in the year of departure you just enter a change of country on your tax return and whammo.  I'm sure there are people on here (Will and Judie are a couple (well, four, I guess!) of sensible shoes who have gone home recently, as is Milkybarkid) who've done this and they will no doubt know how much hassle it is, as does Idun - although her situation is much more complicated than yours would be as she was here for so long and worked.  I wouldn't let that stop you, if I were you, from doing this by the book.  But again, totally your choice, nowt to do with us.[:)]

[Sprogster]

As this is my area of work, I feel able to comment.

Under the new UK residency rules that are currently out for consultation and will be included in the forthcoming UK Finance Bill/Budget, a retiree that goes to France just for one year, for what all intensive purposes is an extended holiday, with intentions to return to the UK thereafter, will be unable to become non UK tax resident. As you will be unable to meet the new clean break test requirement and even under the current rules it is highly unlikely HMRC would allow Stan to escape. (Refer recent Gaines Copper Supreme Court ruling.)

Therefore, more than likely, Stan will find himself dual tax resident in the UK and France and using the DTA to offset his UK tax liability, as a credit against any French liability.

Since the aforementioned Gaines Cooper judgement, it has become intentionally a lot more difficult for a Brit to become non UK tax resident, unless you are going for the purpose of genuine contractual employment abroad, or sever all your UK connections, including available accomodation and make no return visits for at least a year.

[idun]

That sounds like it is going to be bordelic, if they don't join up legislation about tax and health care. They should, but will they ?

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="idun"]That sounds like it is going to be bordelic, if they don't join up legislation about tax and health care. They should, but will they ?[/quote]

Legistation about tax is already joined up through the dual taxation treaty - as Sprogster has already explained.....

 

[idun]

I understood that, I wasn't referring to dual taxation. But the Dept of Health is the not the Exchequer. What if, health has some rules and the tax man others, now that could be bordelic.

[Furster]

Hi All,

I have been following this thread with great interest. When I left the UK in 1969 I don't think there was any such thing as form P85 - Leaving the UK, I just left without informing anyone. I have lived in Scandinavia since then so I don't qualify for any kind of pension from the UK, having only worked there for 3 years. My sole pension providers are the Swedish state where I have been paying for 39 years and a couple of private pension schemes, also Swedish. I was wondering though, when I move to France definitely, which will be next year, will I be obliged to sign on anywhere? By then I will be 65 and will be a full time pensioner.My wife is 2 years younger, but I will be supporting her until her Swedish pension starts in 3 years time.

Furster

[idun]

Ask the swedish pension/health people for an E121 which is probably an S1 these days, and have your wife as a dependant. You hand that in to the CPAM when you get to France. You should also get the equivilent of an EHIC(CEAM in France), a european health card from the swedish authorities.

[cooperlola]

Sprogster - Stan seemed to me to say that he'd be renting out his UK property for a year so presumably no permanent bolt hole in the UK would exist.  It seems to me that the judgement you quote, whilst understandable in its aims, doesn't really legislate for a person who genuinely changes their mind - as opposed to one who plans a long stay abroad, knowing full well that they will return.  It would surely be understandable for such a person to take holidays in the UK if they intended to put down roots elsewhere.

I've been here for seven years now and in that time five couples (out of the eight British households I've got to know round abouts) have gone "home" - one after just 2 weeks (he was gravely ill and they went back to be with their children), another who was terminally ill, a third couple who couldn't get healthcare here, a fourth because they can no longer afford France and the fifth to a new job (she still works here and travels back and forth).  All intended to live here "forever" but it just didn't happen.  What is there, genuinely, to prevent Stan from saying he's coming to France "for good" and then not doing so?  I know you know your stuff so it's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stir anything!

[idun]

Interesting comment  about 'no longer affording France'. When everything is added up, was France ever a cheap option? I still see odds and sods in the british press about France being 'cheap' but these are just bits of nonsense.

[cooperlola]

Well, whilst I know what you mean, when they moved over their £ was worth 30% more and they were living a bit on the edge then.  But given that their cottage here cost the less than 500€ a month, that was substantially less than they paid in rent in the UK.  Things changed for them and there wasn't enough slack in their budget.  Sh*t happens.  They're now on the list for social housing in the UK and staying with family in the spare room.

But in general I agree, apart from housing costs, I reckon France can be much more expensive.

[Chancer]

I guess it depends on what standard of living you want to maintain and your income, for me personally living on a very very limited budget France is cheaper although I need to qualify that.

I have no housing costs per se in either country, no mortgage or rent to pay.

My primary costs are Electricity, Water, car insurance, carte grise vs road tax, diesel, CT vs MOT, metered water and sewage, Taxes fonc & habitation vs council tax, telephone/internet, all of these for me at least are significantly cheaper in my part of France than my part of the UK.

The other big cost that of food is actually cheaper for me  in France but I could eat cheaper in the UK if I were to buy junk food, luckily here it is not an option, I try to only eat healthy foods, fresh fruit and veg etc and most of the time when I buy it in the UK I am surprised by the price, that said were I to shop in the grand surfaces in France it would probably cost as much if not more, so I guess maybe I should say that food is a similar price.

Overall I know that France is cheaper for me but that is really on a survival budget, were I a shopper or had lots of leisure interests in some of the "must have" fields then I am sure that the UK would win hands down, pretty much my only leisure expenditure is my dive club at €175 per annum, my local one in the UK is twice that (I did however buy all my dive kit in the UK) and a gym club membership, 3 classes a week plus an afternoon hike for the whole year except August costs €82, you could not find a comparable gym in the UK unless you stepped back 30 years in time but all the ones that I know cost at least that much per month.

[cooperlola]

I guess that the frugal can live frugally anywhere, Chance.  We too pay less in local taxes and our fuel bills are comparable.  Income tax is lower but healthcare vastly more expensive, especially with top-up.  But I do think things like car repairs and other professional services are very costly here (as tradespeople have huge cotis to pay - not their fault) and they are things which you know how to do yourself so probably don't get near your radar!

[Chancer]

I agree completely Cooperlola, it is not a good country to be in if you are not able to be self sufficient in most things.

It doesnt come under the heading of living expenses but I buy so much stuff for the renovation, tools, materials, consumables, car servicing, clothes etc in the UK that if I were to include the spending in my calcs but using French prices it sure would be an expensive country to be in.

Of course the pound having slipped against the Euro has made things that were perhaps always too cheap now very expensive but there is another factor that has come into play since the crise, whereas all the UK suppliers have done their utmost to reduce or peg prices, special offers etc, whatever it takes to keep customers loyal the complete opposite has happened here, the prices go up every January, if they have had a bad year then they put them up higher in the hope of recovering their losses which of course they dont so the next year they put them up even further, the restaurants have at least 3 price rises per year and never gave back a centime of the TVA reduction.

In 2005 90% of my spending on materials was here in France, in 2007 I did a conversion in the UK and took most of the materials from France, last year (have not yet got the figures for this year) 80% of the spending was in the UK.

[YCCMB]

Stupid question, probably, but one that's always puzzled me. Please excuse me if someone's already covered this, but although I HAVE tried to read the rest of the thread carefully, I've got a bit lost between the relative merits of health treatment and the tax issue thingy...

It has always seemed to me that, whilst there's a clearly (or somewhat clearly) defined set of rules and regs telling one what to do if one moves to another country, there's no actual legislation telling us what, in the eyes of Government(s) constitutes a "holiday". It does strike me that the OP is, in effect, deciding to take a year's holiday.

I've read more and more about retirees taking the equivalent of a "gap year" upon retirement, and this case seems not dissimilar, the only possible difference being that they've chosen to take it all in one place, in a second property that they own.

It does seem to me to be overkill to insist that if you're taking an extended holiday you should therefore be expected to relocate your entire life "for tax purposes". Is there nothing in any legislation which provides clarity with regard to, for example, intent to return after a set period? If not, then I'd like to know where (I suspect nowhere) there's legislation laying down restrictions on the maximum length of holiday one is allowed to take before it becomes a taxation issue:especially considering that usually when one does take a holiday, one doesn't generally stop paying taxes in one's country of habitual residence.

[Furster]

To Idun,

Many thanks for the helpful answer, grateful for your time.

Furster

[idun]

You're welcome. It should be pretty easy at the swedish end, good luck.

[cooperlola]

Well, Betty, I get the feeling that anybody trying to give a difinive answer to Stan is going to begin to sound like Joseph Heller.

The judgement which Sprogster talks about seems to put the long-term holiday-er firmly in the UK taxation camp (or at least a dual tax resident.)  Somewhere there are dual taxation agreements which will apply.  However (here comes the Heller bit), those who spend more than 3 months here in a calendar year, must live here legally (which involves filling in a tax form in France) and must have private healthcare or an S form.  Stan can get an S form for up to 30 months but then he'll be in effect declaring that he's moving to France - because that's the criteria upon which the S form is issued.  However, under the Sprogster judgement (sorry, Sprogs!), he can't do this as he knows he'll be moving back after 12 months so he remains a UK tax resident.  He can't use an EHIC because it's basically for (in the main, although it has other dimensions) holidays and, at least to date, 12 months has been considered more than a normal holiday - 6 months having been an accepted (if not absolute) maximum.

I think in his shoes I'd try to get a response from the DWP as to the validity of an EHIC if he intends to spend 12 months abroad.  Not that I'm sure they'll have a sensible answer either, but it does seem to me that if the judgement insists that he remain a UK tax resident then the least the UK can do is to pay for his healthcare since he'll be using French infrastructure for a year but paying Britain for the privelege.

I don't think anybody on this thread has got to the bottom of this dilema and I do think it's an interesting subject and throws up an important question.

[Sprogster]

Coops, what the tax authorities are looking for are 'perpetual tourists', who try and arrange their affairs to be tax resident nowhere!

As a result the UK is making it much more difficult for someone to become non UK resident if they retain connections with the UK.

Therefore, if you have a Brit retiree with a second home in France, who decides as a one off to temporarily spend twelve months in France, and continuers to pay UK taxes, the French Fisc will not challenge any HMRC position that such an individual is still a UK tax payer, as politically they are not out to poach each others tax payers and will not want to waste their time registering a new tax payer and processing a return, when there is no revenue opportunity. However, as soon as the Brit retiree decides to make France their permanent home, then everything changes.

Apparently, a lot of fifty/sixty something Brits are taking grey hair gap years and going off travelling for twelve months. I think it is what is is, just an extended holiday for which you should take out private travel health insurance, which you can do for a year.

[cooperlola]

Thanks Sprogster.  I do think this sounds very sensible but it still leaves the thorny issue of healthcare.  Will the UK continue to accept responsibility for Stan's healthcare costs or not because if he makes no tax return in France and doesn't pay here, then they don't get either their 8% or their S-form payment.  Is private healthcare the only option or what?  It's surely a question he needs to ask, at least.

I think we keep posting at the same time!  If you do take the travel insurance option, Stan, bear in mind that many policies assume that you have EHIC cover for the basics so I'd study the small print very carefully before buying.[:)]

[Chancer]

"Perpetual tourist" [:)]

At least I have a name now [;-)]

[idun]

http://goo.gl/sMC59

Just found this link.

What should the Dept of Health say really? They have told me and M.Idun that we can just join the NHS, I have a letter stating that. But the NHS say that we have to have an S1 (E121) from the french and to get that we have to pay the french.

So this will basically boil down to the NHS and how they will treat the OP. If they treat him as they have treat us, then they'll tell him to do it properly and get an S1 (E106).

I think that he should call Newcastle and ask exactly what he should do and get it in writing and then he can report back on here.......... maybe they'll be kinder to him than they have been to us. None of us can tell him,  and personally if advice on here sounds about 'right' I always check up with the authorities.

 

And quite unrelated to health, there is the french tax and he should bear it in mind.

[Stan Streason]

Hello again everyone - I have been to France for a couple of days to close up the house for winter.  (Of course that has now raised further questions - I am being chased for a fosse inspection and none of my French TV channels seem to work anymore).

I think I am following those parts of the thread relating to my original query and thanks for the contributions.

The discussions seem to boil down to 2 points, health and tax, about which I can be completely flexible.

My UK side is fine.  I will continue to pay taxes in UK and although I may rent my house (I should be so lucky), I will have plenty of places to stay with 3 children and a father still in UK.  I now understand that I have to return home every 3 months just to say honestly that I have not been out of the country longer than that.  No problem  - £50 flight and stay with the kids.  I can get a series of 3 month travel insurances and use my EHIC.

The French tax side seems to be that I need to register pretty much a nil return if I stay for more than 180 days in a tax year (which I could manipulate over 2 tax years).

I think thats got it.

Now what about those TV channels?

[Chiefluvvie]

Stan - All of the southern French regions changed over to digital yesterday 08 Nov 2011 - the old analogue transmitters have been turned off. So you'll need either satellite, TNT as an integral part of your TV or a TNT set top decoder.

Chiefluvvie

[idun]

Ah SS, this made me smile.

I now understand that I have to return home every 3 months just to say honestly that I have not been out of the country longer than that.  No problem 

 

 

They count the days in a year, if they want. And they may not bother with you at all, but none of us can say that.