Brown Forms and Mad Doctors..... as in angry

[SaligoBay]

SaligoBay says in one response that one shouldnt compare UK and France then does it in every reply she makes!.

Ummm, nope, not guilty!!! 

I quoted a French magazine that favourably compared UK midwife numbers with French midwife numbers.   I find that funny, the difference between what French people say about the French health system and what British people say about the French health system.  

The pompiers and the broken leg?   Difference in attitude - British people complain bitterly in public about bad treatment, French people mostly don't, so until you know individuals well, you have no idea of what goes on in everyday France. 

"Comparisons" like that are only to show why it's so pointless to indulge in "UK=bad, France=good" and "defend-France-at-all-costs" nonsense.   Long and intimate knowledge of the NHS does not give you long and intimate knowledge of the French system.  Sorry! 

  

[Miki]

[quote]Miki - would you be less worried if I said "odd" rather than "even" ? Hmmm, you 3 old timers (length of sentence rather than number of rings) seem to upset peeps by painting a picture of the Franc...[/quote]

John,

Quite right but we also poke fun at ourselves on occasion and of course we love much of life in France, why wouldn't we (whoops I am speaking out of turn here as I should not speak for others)

I can only say that I personally speak it exactly as we as a family have found it here. It may not fit in too neatly with what people perceive to be the France they live in and sure, if one does not delve too deeply, not wish too comprehend all one sees, it is a fine luxuriant problem free place ! But work here, have children go through the system from start to finish (well another year or so of BTS to go yet for one), see the problems that other families(French families in particular) have to go thorough almost daily, see how much poverty is still here under ones nose, see just how beaurocratic it can all be in everyday life. I could go on and on and I am sure others will make a better point of just how difficult it can be here.

We could go home one day I'm sure, we may not, who knows but I really see no point in being a member on here and not tell it as I have experienced or read it. If others see it as an almost utopian affair, that's fine, really but if it was all posts like that, what good would that honestly be ? Only a fool would ever believe that is what it is really like here and is probably why so many go back rather too quickly, when they realise it was not a jot like they were led to believe it was all going to be.

There, am I belittling others or putting my view, I much prefer to think I am offering an experienced view, whether people think that I am right is up to them but I do know, that several people after a few years do contact me to say "I now see what you meant" (and I am not just talking about on forums) the hard bit is trying to make some people see it before they make the big error in thinking it will be a doddle out here for a family of 4 to survive on peanuts cause something will turn up, "look at them on the TV that did wonderful"......did someone say recently something like "Dreams are for night time not for during the day"

[Russethouse]

>>Ron A. I agree with you. I have been following this thread with interest. I too would like to know how long some of the posters on this forum who support the UK health system have been living outside of the UK? Too long I feel, as they don't seem to have a real picture of the way things are at all. I am relatively new to France, well, nearly a year here. So still quite well informed with how things are in the UK concerning the National Health system. Mostly very bad actually, of course if you really try hard you can always find a good example! <<<

Sorry Jude,I don't have to try hard at all. As far as I am concerned the service I get has improved - I get doctors appointments quicker, always within 48 hours often 24 hours. If I need to see a consultant that is now quicker too (although there is room for improvement). More proceedures are carried out in the surgery too. If I am ill out of hours I can ask for a duty doctor to call (they are driven around) or I can phone and arrange to go to a surgery in the hospital, (but independant of A & E) Should I need A & E waiting times are coming down. I can even see - fanfare here please...a NHS dentist. In fact I believe there is a choice.

Hospital wards are another matter - 'nursing' seems to mean something different these days and some basic skills seem to have been lost, I also appreciate that we are fairly fortunate here, but not everything in the UK health service is dire anymore than everything in French health service is good

[Laotze]

[quote]".....This thread is hilarious!"Well sorry but I find your post far more hilarious to be honest.Lets go through the differences we personally have found against your findings :" .....I worked in the N...[/quote]

Miki - so glad to have amused you!

I do not disagree about the fonctionnaires in CPAM but as you admitted the NHS is one of the largest employers in the world - and it is erroneous to imagine that the majority of this workforce are health care workers. They are pen pushers and layers of management that with every government reform get added to.  Besides the staff employed in doctors surgeries and hospitals etc each region in the Uk has NHS Executive Offices employing thousands of administrative staff in addition to the very large NHS Executive Head Office in Leeds. All these employees are civil servants on very good salaries, pensions etc. Then there are the organisations such as NICE, PALS etc. About 90% of the population dont even know these organisations exist let alone what they do - and they soak up huge wodges of taxpayers money. My experience in the Uk was not only hearsay from myself and family but 10 years experience in handling complaints from the public - the people who couldnt get an NHS dentist or had their dead childrens body parts removed without their knowledge or were struck off their doctors list without explanation. And living in France I have French neighbours and friends and hear of their experiences as well as my own. And no - not all doctors anywhere are all good or dont make mistakes but its a damn sight easier to walk away from a bad doctor in France. Human nature being what it is means that if you have a handful of fivers in your hand when you visit the doctor he is going to be a lot more pleased to see you than when you are getting it for "free". From my experience working in NHS management I believe that the way the NHS is structured puts it at a disadvantage to offer the best care for the majority of patients and ensure that the NHS is used as a political football and that a great deal of taxpayers money is wasted. I have used the health care systems of 4 countries and in my own opinion have found that the system here WHILST NOT PERFECT is the best in terms of quality of care and access to treatment.

 

[Jude]

Russethouse, you are obviously very fortunate to live in an area which has got a good NHS service, not to mention how fortunate you are in being able to see an NHS dentist. Where we moved out from, the N.E of UK, it was just about impossible to find even a private dentist who would take you on. I also question the waste of public money in chauffering around doctors who are on call, why can't they drive themselves? Do you actually believe Russethouse, that this is public money put to good use???

Generally speaking, the NHS services in the UK have certainly deteriorated in the last 20 years at least. Standards have dropped. However I do acknowledge that belated efforts have and are being made to improve things, but not before many hundreds of people have suffered.

You are obviously one of few lucky ones Russethouse, sadly there are many parts of the UK that are not so blessed, so perhaps you should take that into consideration whilst being so pleased with your own situation.

Jude

[Miki]

"Miki - so glad to have amused you!"

Wasn’t the feeling mutual ?

“I do not disagree about the fonctionnaires in CPAM but as you admitted the NHS is one of the largest employers in the world “

Admitted !! goodness me, it is common knowledge. And it isn’t just in CPAM that has masses of workers not involved in care etc in hospitals. It is also erroneous to imagine that there are not more non health care workers in the huge system in France. Do you know the make up in France, or do you think that the UK is alone in trying hard to try and sort out the huge thing that is the health system ?

I would say in answer to the percentage you say know little or nothing about things such as NICE etc then I would guess that the percentage of Brits that come to France know just one percent of how the health system really works here, so what does all that prove….correct, absolutely Zilch and I wonder what the heck you brought it up for to be honest.

I and some others have given some facts and stories from our experience here, our side of it all. Why do you think we are saying it ? or do you prefer to just see it from what has happened to you and then ignore all what others have seen ? You see, I know good things happen here and I also know good things happen in the UK sector, whereas you believe all UK health care is more or less crap and in France, all is great, well it simply ain’t so.

So what do your neighbours who you talk to, say about the Health system here ?

You can’t have a free at point of entry hospital system then judge the system, Doctor for Doctor, hospital for hospital and then add that a fistful of fivers improves the Doctors, he is good or he is not, his bedside manner might be more welcoming but that means nothing when it comes to GP skills. If it were that simple, then how come the private sector in the UK is not as bright as one might think it should be ?

Everyone I have ever heard who says they worked in the NHS says it is top heavy but not one knows how to better it. We can all slag off anything we want but the major point is, who can tell me how it can be improved without fail ? Some top brains have been brought in to try and improve it all and it has proved to be an extremely difficult animal to make efficient. It is a cliché to talk of political football, in the way you have put it, what do you mean ? It was extremely run down through the Maggie era, leaving Major with an awful mountain to climb to improve it (it was of course one of the top issues in the Blair winning year) it is proving terrifically difficult for Blair to shake it up in to a more efficient unit. It will never be perfect BUT in no way will the French ever be efficient either, what I am told by people on here is that some hospitals have people sitting around just waiting for someone to come in and be treated, now that is inefficiency is it not ? (as well as total rubbish in most cases)

I see it more and more in France, new arrivals and others who have lived here a while but have yet to venture too far from the old homestead, get very touchy if someone speaks out against the way things are in France, it is as if there very dream would be shattered if it was not like it is in their head, although recently I have been surprised to see a lot more people who have settled in to living here with a far greater ease and far less expectation, seeing France as no more than a nice place to live but with as much against as for.

Here's an awful reminder that France has equally horrific problems and I seriously wonder just how the red tops would be using this as a political weapon as at Alder Hey.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4740073.stm

[Russethouse]

>>

Russethouse, you are obviously very fortunate to live in an area which has got a good NHS service, not to mention how fortunate you are in being able to see an NHS dentist. Where we moved out from, the N.E of UK, it was just about impossible to find even a private dentist who would take you on. I also question the waste of public money in chauffering around doctors who are on call, why can't they drive themselves? Do you actually believe Russethouse, that this is public money put to good use???<<

If you need a doctor to call it may not be your doctor or even one from your normal practice, its better for them to be attending to patients rather than worrying about where somewhere is or the quickest way there. All I can say is that it works ! (perhaps some of the doctors can't drive )

As regards dentists we increasingly seem to have practices that offer private and NHS work. For instance I had a bridge recently and could choose between having type a in 2 weeks or having type b via the NHS and possibly having an inspection with the dental estimates board which is what happened

>>Generally speaking, the NHS services in the UK have certainly deteriorated in the last 20 years at least. Standards have dropped. However I do acknowledge that belated efforts have and are being made to improve things, but not before many hundreds of people have suffered. <<<

Yep, I have been lucky, my kids have been well looked after as have my parents (different practice) but I have heard of some pretty poor examples of hospital care recently (not locally) and I think there is a awful lot of work to do there.

>>You are obviously one of few lucky ones Russethouse, sadly there are many parts of the UK that are not so blessed, so perhaps you should take that into consideration whilst being so pleased with your own situation.<<<

Yes - I appreciate my fortune but similarly there are many parts of France where things are not so good as you seem to think either - thats what we are saying ......

[SaligoBay]

get very touchy if someone speaks out against the way things are in France, it is as if there very dream would be shattered if it was not like it is in their head,

It's the knee-jerk desire to defend France at any cost, in the face of everything.  I've even seen people on here trying to defend the atrocious road-death figures.  Mind you, I haven't seen anyone trying to defend the suicide figures, I guess some things just defy even the most ardent francophiles!

Try today's gruesome news from Paris. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4740073.stm

I'm sure that many people see red when these things happen in Britain, but when they happen in France........ is it the distance that makes it seem not so bad, or you just don't want to believe it, or what?

Glad everyone escaped from the Air France plane though. 

[Laotze]

This is the same old argument that has been going on on this forum since pa fell off the bus. There are those who have lived for so many years in France that the daily realities of living in the Uk are but dim nostalgia, whereas daily life in France impacts hard on them. Anyone whose French reality differs from theirs must be wrong. Perceptions differ - opinions differ. I grew up in a French speaking household and have had connections with France all my life. I have French friends all over France (many of whom who have lived elsewhere and returned to France and certainly have pretty strong views on the superiority of their own country!) and I now live in France. I worked in the NHS - and with some of these great brains that are trying to reform it. I went through over 3 years of attending meetings with people who had a great new plan for patient participation in the NHS and saw the shambles that was government planning close hand. I dont for one minute imagine that the French Civil Service isnt as full of incompetents as the British Civil Service - after all I have dealt with them too. I still maintain that from my experience of both systems that in France is much superior. There are those who defend everything French ............................... and there are those who defend everything British by holding up French facts and figures to prove that its worse here in France. My part in this argument is over - I made my choice to live in this country based on knowledge and I am content that I made the best choice for the moment. Life in France at the moment meets my needs (including my medical needs) - I am sorry that it doesnt meet the needs of some who post on here but we all live different lives. Dont make the assumption that everyone who comes to live in France did so because they watched a TV programme or read a Year in Provence and are living in cloud cuckoo land. And dont make the assumption that because some of us look on the bright side that we are blinded to that we chose not to focus on.

[Motorhead]

All I  know is I might well be dead if I was still in Britain. I had a serious abdominal disorder for 10 years that was first of all diagnosed as a urinary infection then as imagination and finally as irritable bowel syndrome. My complaints about having an infection were totally dismissed.

When I got my first spasm attack in France I went along to the doc expecting to be given anti-spasmodic pills and then left to stew in agony for the next week as usual. However the doc really and I mean really examined me and then announced that I was off to hospital where I had to stay for 11 days.

They told me that my gut was in severe danger of perforation and that there was only so many of these episodes one could have before the intestine bursts. When I told them how many I'd already had and that the only treatment was anti-inflamatories and not even a sniff of anti-biotics they were deeply shocked.

For me there is absolutley no comparison between the 2 systems. 

[Hoddy]

The problem with this thread is that none of us is expert enough or has enough information to make a judgement between the two systems.  We can only speak of our own or our friends’ and family’s experience.

For what it’s worth, here’s mine; OH and I have received excellent service from the NHS over the last few years. OH had a major operation without having to wait, three days in intensive care and eight days on an ordinary ward – all superb. We had no trouble finding an NHS dentist when our old one retired. It's my general impression that things have improved over the last few years.

A visit to the local A & E in the UK was a bit of a nightmare. We arrived on Saturday evening at about 5pm. It wasn’t too bad when we arrived, then during the course of the evening the place filled up with some of  our less attractive fellow citizens, including two prisoners who’d been fighting each other and were shackled to their trolleys ! When I stepped outside to make a call to the family on my mobile, people came out of nowhere begging for money, cigarettes and the use of the phone. Altogether an unpleasant experience although the medical care was, eventually, good.

Two visits to the A & E at the local hospital in France were much more pleasant and civilised. The snag was that on both occasions, the doctor (only one on duty) was out on an emergency ! Now that would have been something for the red tops in the UK.  Again the medical care when it arrived was fine.

I have drawn my own conclusions about where to have a heart attack.

However, assuming that you get what you pay for, the figures that Hegs gives lead one to suppose that the French system is better. It certainly ought to be if they’re spending a third more and that the service isn’t completely free as it is in the UK.

Hoddy

[Miki]

“This is the same old argument that has been going on on this forum since pa fell off the bus. There are those who have lived for so many years in France that the daily realities of living in the Uk are but dim nostalgia, whereas daily life in France impacts hard on them. Anyone whose French reality differs from theirs must be wrong.”

But surely the same can be said for many whose only bit of reality is lunching, partying, and seeing a neighbour and nodding “bonjewer” but offer all kinds of “oh it’s great” and “oh it’s all wonderful and oh so brilliantly lovely” and other general remarks but never see French TV never, ever read French papers and when told by anyone “hold on did you not know about this fact or that happening”, then one is accused of saying that their French is different from the totally unreal one thus described.

No one is saying that one cannot have a good time and that hospitals are all bad here but when one reads that so and so Brit had a wonderful op on her bottom or wherever and someone else says their French friend was badly diagnosed and has since died, then that is posted as wrong and is not fair ? It is totally correct to show the other side.

I am always reading in serious UK papers that the hospitals are seeking very hard in trying conditions (huge employment like previously mentioned being a major factor) to get it far better than it has been, sure I don’t know this to be a fact but I can say that all those that simply give it all terribly bad in the UK are saying it with blinkers from their own experience and the UK is a big place (look at Gay’s post for instance).I have posted good and bad on French healthcare, isn’t that how it should be for goodness sake ?

“.. many of whom who have lived elsewhere and returned to France and certainly have pretty strong views on the superiority of their own country!”

And yes we have friends like that but just how the French can have that many superior stances is beyond me to be honest but many are so insular as to be ridicolous.

I defend what I see to be correct, whether that is the UK of France will depend on the situation. To defend something, just because one is nationalistic, or simply in love with a country, is not a very reasonable attitude to have.

I can’t imagine why you have you come up with the thoughts that it doesn’t meet the needs of some people here ? Is being logical and honest not allowed or does it mean that it does not meet ones needs ? Crazy, simply crazy. Wherever one lives, if one cares to look and read to find out things, one will always have something they find not right but that does not in any way mean the country does not meet ones needs surely ?

“Dont make the assumption that everyone who comes to live in France did so because they watched a TV programme or read a Year in Provence and are living in cloud cuckoo land. And dont make the assumption that because some of us look on the bright side that we are blinded to that we chose not to focus on.”

Haven’t got a clue where that paragraph sprung from or who it was addressed to, to be honest ? We look very much on the bright side and take note of much and we do not assume anything about those that care not to focus on reality, especially those that do not see what is gong on but are in denial lest it crashes the dream and that is sad. Living here can be great, extremely maddening, downright ridiculous at times, brilliant, awful and any other thing you can think of !

The trick as I see it, is to see it as a place that many French want to leave and to personally not wonder why.

[Teamedup]

Comparing is futile.

 

The NHS was set up to give free health care for all. And I know that it isn't quite free anymore and many pay for prescriptions, but many do not. And dentists, well, a debacle. However, it doesn't matter on your circumstances, you can get medical treatment. And I grew up with the idea that that was a very good idea.

 

The french health care system was set up, (apart from certain specific illnesses, which are completely covered)  to participate in the health care of those that qualified. Usually up to two thirds of that cost.

Fortunately a bit of humanity has entered the french system and the CMU came in not too long ago. There are still those who don't fit into the system though.

 

HUGE amounts of money go into the french system, the deficit it enormous. I have no idea as to what it would be like if it managed to live within it's means. At most, the governments current participation is only around 75% of the cost towards the nations health care.  Knowing how much we pay at the moment, I wonder how much people would be prepared to pay out to keep it as it is if it did start to balance it's budget?

Not enough I imagine, or maybe I'm wrong. Only enough people seem to be kicking up about the decline in current reimbursements.

Trou and Seçu................... I wish that they were not mentioned so often in the same sentence. A real problem.

[Richardbk]

why does there need to be comparisons at all.

We moved here 12 years ago. During this period we have mainly lived in Ile de France, by far the richest area France with the highest accessibility to medical care. We have been living the last few months in the south west area where main difference is limitation in terms of choice for doctores, hospitals clinics etc.   During these 12 years we have noticed that whilst in general the quality of care has remained more or less the same, the waiting time to access the system has significantly increased. A visit to the doctor was always possible the same day - now it can take up to 3 days. access to consultants was usually available the following week - now it is 4-5 weeks. a scan could be done in 2-3 weeks , now it is 2-3 months. Xrays and blood test that could be done the following day now can take upto 4 days. We are also finding that A&E is taking much longer -  however knowing people in the system usually turns the wait into minutes All our kids were born in clinics or hospitals here and we have our fair share of A&E, access to consultants, scans/xrays, hospital stays etc. 

As it happens I am currently recovering from a knee ligament operation - done at the time and place I wanted; it was a private clinic so the additional fees are paid by my organisation and the mutuelle. However, getting the follow up GP visits, blood tests, physio etc is proving more difficult to arrange. 

So in summary for those comparing with the UK perhaps the French system is better - I can not really judge - been out the UK too long. However from our experience I would say that the French system is certainly on a downward trend and if you consider the cuts and changes that the current government is pushing through it quite easy to see that the carefree-money-no-object days of the French health system are rapidly coming to an end. 

regs

Richard

[SaligoBay]

Trou and Seçu................... I wish that they were not mentioned so often in the same sentence.

But they're only mentioned in the same sentence by French people, TU, and you can see from this thread how little THEIR opinion counts! 

 

[Hegs]

Sorry, I seem to have missed the contribution to this thread by anyone French... or perhaps some egos have expanded so far some posters now feel able to speak for the French as a whole?

What a pointless, pointless, pointless waste of time this discussion has become, over and out.

[Miki]

You also seem to have greatly missed the irony that was made about the French in that posting.....so one could equally say, what a pathetic, pathetic, pathetic waste of a post..

[Motorhead]

The bottom line is that if you have an illnes that is better recognised in France then you are better off here like me.

The NHS can be the the best health service in the world but only if you are judged to be "at risk". Once upon a time I was a fieldworking sewer biologist which is a very risky occupation healthwise and as such I had access to the full treatment however, when I stopped doing it I was back to being Joe Public and got the usual crap care.