Did you know........ after E106

[Penny29]

Hi,

I know many people ask about their entitlement to French Healthcare after the E106 expires, especially people on low/non-existant incomes and below sttutory retirement age who may want to bridge the gap without working full time.

A simple tip is to go and work in the agricultural sector for several weeks each year, for example doing apple sorting or apple picking etc. A few weeks work per year will buy you TWO years worth of entitlement to a carte vitale. However, your first years work is best undertaken whilst you are still in possession of a valid E106 as the employer will need you to produce a valid current carte vitale as well as your passport and birth cert.

Hope this helps someone.

 

Penny

 

[derf]

Why not just sign up to CMU Protection de base? it's easy to do and free of charges to low income families and you will get your Carte Vitale without breaking your back, only downside is you have to apply each year.

[Penny29]

True, Derf,

 

But many people (myself included) don't like the thought of going cap in hand to CPAM and getting a "state handout". At least with the agricultural work you feel that you are, in a small way, contributing to the system etc, plus it puts a few weeks waes in the bank & pays a few bills.

Of course, none of this would be necessary if the E106 was issued for a length of time based on the total number of YEARS you had paid into the UK system before moving abroad, rather than being based on the last few years contributions - but don't get me started on that subject................................. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[bedders]

Penny29,

At the risk of being grrrrrrrowled at, am i correct in stating: that a person that has been in & out of work in the UK for 2 or 3 years prior to moving to France could suffer a reduced term on his/her E106.

My position is that i have been self employed (in the UK) for 30 years, but in the last 2/3 years have really struggled for continuity of work. Having not bothered with the dole office or whatever they are called now, i am stamps short, this will presumably reflect on my entitlement? Not the fact that in the past, it has felt as if i were paying for the national health service single handedly.   

[Ron Avery]

Bedders, simple answer is yes, that is what is so unfair about it, If you pay NI for 30 years,  stop work for three and then move to France, you will not get an E 106.  Best thing to do, is contact the DWP at Newcastle to check what you can get.

[Penny29]

Hi Bedders,

Agree with Ron - yes, it will have a detrimental effect on your E106 application.

Over past few months I have been in protracted discussions with Newcastle on behalf of someone who was self employed for 3 years before leaving the UK. They have refused to issue an E106 for longer than 11 months (up to Dec 31st 2005) despite the fact that this person has been paying self employed National Insurance right up to date.

My interpretation of the rules is now that no self employed person can ever be granted an 106 lasting longer than 1 year (Jan- Dec). But Newcastle staff are very very coy about actually admitting this (presumably because it would demonstrate a complete lack of fairness in dealing with the self employed).

At the time of writing this I have asked for a definitive written reply from Newcastle - well, that was 2 months ago and despite many reminders they still haven't provided any response. I shall post on here when I finally get a reply, though methinks I shall end up writing to their Chief Exec and my MP to force a reply!!!!!

Bedders - you don't say if you have left the UK yet or not - if not, there is always the option of paying back your arears of NI (you have up to 6 years to do this). PM me if you need further advice as the dates you pay arrears up to are critical.

 

 

 

[derf]

My interpretation of the rules is now that no self employed person can ever be granted an 106 lasting longer than 1 year (Jan- Dec).

You may be right, I was self employed for 30+years with all my NI contributions paid up before we left the UK, but I was only given 12 months on the E106. It didn't really matter as my wife was given 24 months but I could not get a reason as to why.

And yet, I have been allowed to continue to pay self employed contributions here in France (and still do) my wife who had never been self employed was also allowed to pay the Self employed stamp, and as you know it's a lot cheaper than The normal voluntary contributions.We had a discussion about this on the Forum some time ago.

And its not because i have slipped through the net, over the last two years I have been in regular and sometimes heated debate with Newcastle when they stopped taking my Direct Debit then started again then etc. it went on for a long time with e-mails going back and forth but they always blamed the computer system.

Eventually I said I would Pay a single payment every year and that's what I now do and no problems so far.

[Teamedup]

This is getting as silly as women who voluntarily paid small stamp, now  complaining that they now get no pension.  We all know that self employed have different rules. Isn't that the point, one makes a choice to be self employed. I doubt that self employed people in France get a good deal either, especially as they pay an arm and a leg to the government.

And the CMU, I simply do not like anyone coming here and getting it just like that or getting tuyau to get it. You can all quote rights all you like. Only ordinary french people didn't have this particular 'right' until recently. Surely people coming here voluntarily should not be scrounging like this off another country. That is exactly how it feels to me.

 

 

[Penny29]

Derf,

If I was you I would just keep stumm to Newcastle about your paying the Class 2 stamp whilst living abroad!

Theoretically it's a definite no-no, but you may well have benefitted from the fact that your emails have gone to the DWP section in Newcastle and these are not the same people as those who collect and administer the NI scheme (Inland Revenue), coupled with the fact that since the IR merged with the National Insurance Contributions Agency some years back no-one seems to know what the hell they are doing any more (For anyone who doesn't believe me - go into your local UK tax office and ask an NI question - you'll mainly get blank looks!)

Just keep quiet and keep paying the stamp. At £1 per week it'll make your entitlement to your eventual Old Age Pension much, much cheaper than the "proper" way which would be to pay voluntary contributions (which are considerably more expensive). Just hang on to all your paperwork as you'll need proof that it was their oversight if they should get shirty about paying out your RP years hence!

 

[Penny29]

Teamed Up,

Sorry, can't understand your first point!

Surely you can see why it would be viewed as unfair for there to be such stark differences in the way an application for an E106 is treated in a case where people (regardless of whether employed or self-employed) have BOTH paid regularly into the UK system. Why should the self-employed be penalised - please explain?

Secondly, the real issue here is that Newcastle seem to be very secretive about the rules and regs governing issue of E106 - that's two posters on this thread so far who have never received proper explanations for the issue of "short" E106's & I am sure there are many more. Government Departments should be open and honest about their policies and explanations should be freely given when requested.

[Owen]

Hello Penny,

You are not the only one who is wrestling with this problem of E106 and the self-employed. Various sources have told me verbally that it makes no difference but clearly, at least in some cases, it apparently does. I say apparently because I do not have access to their NI contributions records. There seems to be a conspiracy of silence on this issue at least in written form and I am coming to the same conclusion as you seem to be doing, ie; the self-employed are being discriminated against. This would be in keeping with how the self-employed have been hammered with NI contributions generally compared to their employed contemporaries.

I did wonder whether it had anything to do with entitlement to Short Term Incapacity Benefit. You will know that issue of E106 to those coming to live but not work in France is actually based on if they have an underlying entitlement to Short Term Incapacity Benefit irrespective of whether it is actually paid. Of course the self-employed can claim IB but I would be interested in any further comments you may have on this angle.

But this official silence is deafening because admittance that the self-employed are being disadvantaged really would open up a can of worms not to say Pandora's Box too. In the end it will probably have to be tested in the European Court of Justice possibly as an infringement of Regulations 1408/71 and 574/72.

Regards

Peter Owen

[email protected]

[Penny29]

Hi Peter,

Interesting! One of the "non" answers I got from DWP regarding the self employed person mentioned underlying title to STIB, but that really doesn't hold water because title to STIB is based on the qualifying contribution records of the two tax years prior to the claim being made. So, it still does not explain why a self employed person with 3+ fully paid up years should not be entitled to the same length E106 as an employed person with a similar contributions track record.

I do have a theory.............bear with me while I explain! I believe the longer E106's are issued on the basis of conts paid in the one PAST tax year plus the CURRENT tax year (clearly this flies in the face of the STIB rules, which is why Newcastle are acting so coy). If this is the case then clearly an employed person can (sometimes) qualify as they may have paid enough NI in the first April of a current tax year to satisfy the annual LEL for the whole year. E.g. Somone notifies DWP they are moving abroad in May 2005, they have paid enough NI to satisfy the past tax year (2004/05) and also 2005/06 (even though this tax year is by no means finished and they have moved abroad before the end of it!) If you apply this same theory to self employed people it is quite clear that a Class 2 NI payer can NEVER satisfy the conditions as he/she needs 52/53 contributions to make a qualifying year and (with the exception of the previous poster on this thread) most people can't get away with paying Class 2 conts after they have left the UK!

However, this theory falls down when one meets people who have been employed and have actually received an E106 for 24+ months because if I'm correct then the longest E106 anyone could possibly receive would run 20 months and no more (Year 1 = May - Dec, Year 2 = Jan - Dec) and this clearly isn't the case!

Believe me I've tried to get definitive answers on this one especially as I thought I knew the system having worked both for the C.A and latterly the IR!

Of course when you question Newcastle all they do is throw up a smokescreen and hide behind any E106 discrepancies by saying that they can't discuss another individuals NI record, not even theoretically.

IMHO this is a load of garbage - either the 2 year STIB rules apply to everyone or they don't, and if they don't it should be made very clear who the rules DON'T apply to and WHY............... and I've more chance of seeing a whole herd of pigs flying through the sky than this happening.

It is interesting to note that the lady I am dealing with at DWP, Newcastle is quite happy to talk about the terms and conditions governing an E106 over the phone, but whenever I ask for the same thing to be put in writing she crawls back into the woodwork. My most recent letter asked 16+ very pertinant questions about E106 entitlements plus loads of questions about NI liability & payments should an ex resident return to the UK to work for varying periods during a tax year. If I ever get a reply I am happy to share the info, but I ain't holding my breath!!!!!!!!

[Viv]

Just a thought, would the Home Responsibilities Protection bit of Child benefit ( which , I think acts as NI contributions for a none working parent) count for the purposes of getting UK health cover?

BTW.

I cannot understand why, if anyone from the UK goes abroad and claims what they are legally entitled to, they are regarded by some people as 'scroungers', yet the same people would be up in arms if anyone suggested that immigrants coming to the UK and also claiming (possibly a far wider range of) benefits were scroungers. Surely one is  either entitled or not?

[derf]

[quote]Derf, If I was you I would just keep stumm to Newcastle about your paying the Class 2 stamp whilst living abroad! Theoretically it's a definite no-no, but you may well have benefitted from the fact...[/quote]

Hi Penny

 

I did keep the proof; I have a letter from the Inland Revenue Centre for Non-Residents Newcastle Upon Tyne sent to my address in France. Which states the following.

 

Dear ******

 

“Thank you for your application to pay voluntary Nation Insurance contributions whilst residing abroad.

 

We have accepted your application to pay voluntary class 2 contributions by Direct Debit. We will collect your payment……………………etc.”

 

I think that’s good enough for me, so I suppose it's like most things sometimes you win and sometimes you don't,

[Owen]

Hello Penny,

I do understand your theory and I have explored this avenue myself (sort of!) but from a different perspective.

About 3 years ago I had sight of letter from Alan Milburn, the then Secretary State for Health, to an MP representing a constituent. Milburn stated that the maximum period of entitlement (to E106) was "about two and a half years". The most plausible formula to achieve this maximum entitlement is the example you quote in that someone is full paid up to April 2005 works for another couple of months in the UK, arrives in France June 2005 and has an E106 up to Dec 2007/Jan 2008. But the reality is that the E106 will expire 12 months earlier. Another culd de sac!

Going back to the STIB angle. I suppose it is possible that although a self-employed has made contributions in the last 3 years but the Class 2 variety were not equal to at least 25 times the lower earnings limit in at least one of those years, then E106 could be shortened. But the logical outcome of that scenario is that E106 would be refused in entirety not just shortened. And in any case there is no reason for the DWP to be evasive on the issue. They could quite legitimately state that E106 has not been issued or shortened because it is linked to entitlement to STIB for which you do not qualify because of insufficient Class 2 contributions.

Regards

Peter Owen

[email protected]

[Penny29]

Hi,

Derf, are you SURE your letter doesn't say "Voluntary Class THREE contributions?????????????"

Viva - I don't think so - HRP (Home Responsibilities Protection) isn't an NI credit as such & it does not buy entitlement to beefits, what it does do is reduce the number of years one needs to pay NI in order to get an Old Age Pension.

E.G. Normal person has to work approx 44 years of their lives & pay enough NI in each of those years to qualify for 100% pension. In the case of someone receiving HRP (for instance a mother, in receipt of Child Benefit, for say, 10 years) they will only have to work and pay NI for 34 years in order to get 100% pension. This is an example in it's broadest sense, in realiy there are many ifs, ands, buts and maybe's!!

Peter - I've applied every possible theory I can to the issuing of E106's and none of it makes sense - it is broadly based on the last 2 conts years, braodly based on the STIB principle, and issue runs in line with Benefit Years, but it really seems to be pot luck as to who gets what and for how long. This is why they won't answer my letter, I am sure, as I ask for some definites!

Also, if a self-employed person has paid 52/53 conts in the two Conts Years prior to a claim for STIB then they should automatically establish title to the benefit. I can understand an E106 being refused when a person has paid only, say 51 conts (or less) in one of the years  but this hasn't been the case with the person I have been helping recently!

Incidently, I suspect many self-employed people lose out on their eventual OAP's for the sake of a few stamps here and there. In the old days, when the self employed popped stamps on a card it was not unusual to have cards handed in at the end of the year with a couple of stamps missing and "holiday" written across the blank boxes. I used to point out that they were about to lose a whole year's worth of title to their eventual pension for the sake of £10 or less (the year only counting as qualification for the OAP if it holds 52 or 53 stamps on it - but this fact was (and still is) buried deep down in the smallest of fine print!). I suspect many, many people weren't told this simple fact, such a waste of the money they had paid faithfully every year. And let's not even go onto Class 4 cntributions, which the self employed pay, but which buys them absolutely zilch!

 

[Teamedup]

My husband now pays class 2, because he works here. We had to send an attestation from his employer to sort this out and prove that he is in full time work. Otherwise it would be class 3 contributions.

[derf]

[quote]Hi, Derf, are you SURE your letter doesn't say "Voluntary Class THREE contributions?????????????" Viva - I don't think so - HRP (Home Responsibilities Protection) isn't an NI credit as such &...[/quote]

No, I do know the the difference between a 2 &  3, I quoted the letter verbatum

[Teamedup]

Derf, I'll tell you the difference, a few hundred quid a year!

[suein56]

We have just (10 September) received my husband's E106 which is valid until 31 December 2005 - as we became resident on 1 July 2005 this gives us just 6 months cover.

The FAQ letter with it clearly states "The form E106 is based on your entitlement to short term Incapacity Benefit, the qualifying procedure used to work out entitlement only allows for the 3 tax years before you left the UK to be taken into consideration."

When I rang Newcastle to query the time period I was told that only the last 2 years contributions were used for self-employed persons - so as Penny says it is virtually impossible for a self-employed person to achieve more that 12 months E106 cover.

Sue

[Jhc]

Hi Penny 29 - we had long debates by letter and phone with Newc last year about this.  My eventual understanding was that one had to have paid all 50 out of 52 NI contributions in 1 financial year in order to get an E106 which would continue until the Dec of the following year. So, for example, if you stop paying your self employed NI contributions in early March 2004 (as my husband did!)then you will only get an E106 until end of Dec 2004.  However, if you stop paying your NI contributions in late March 2004 (ie within 2 weeks of the end of financial year) then your E106 would last until end of Dec 2005.  This is how it was explained to me by Newcastle.  I think anyone contemplating going to live in France needs to get a definitive letter out of Newc before they move, showing them what their entitlement will be based on finishing work at different times of the year (not always easy to plan when you are self employed).  I thought it was SO unfair that Newc do not make this info readily available when you apply to them.  If my understanding is correct then no one would choose to finish work in UK in Feb or March when they could easily carry on and finish at beginning of April.  It makes a huge difference getting an E106 for an extra year and not having to pay into the French system.  But as far as I can see the maximum time a self employed person can get the E106 for is 21 months not 24, ie April until Dec of the following year.

Fortunately for us, although we moved to France in late March 2004, and came with E106's that expired Dec 2004, I carried on some self employed work in UK, and retained a house there, until Oct 2004, and continued paying self employed stamp on my UK income (as I had to do) - I ended up with more UK work than anticipated and therefore living between both countries.  Therefore when Newc reviewed my appeal against the non renewal of E106 for a further year, they decided that I was entitled to one until end of 2005.  My husband was then able to get an entitlement for a further year as my 'dependant'  but not in his own right as he had finished paying UK NI contributions in early March 2004.

People also do not generally realise that when they come to start paying into French health system the amount they pay can be based not just on their income in France but for the first year of payment will usually include their last year of earnings in UK (even though they have paid UK NI contributions on that income already) - and for some giving up well paid jobs to move to France then this can be a large sum to pay into French system.  That is, for example, if you move to France in perhaps Jan or Feb 2005, you start paying into French health system from Jan 2006 after expiry of E106 in Dec 2005, then the amount you pay is based on all income earned as husband and wife in UK and France Jan to Dec 2004.  This was a shock to me as I thought the French payments would only be based on our French income.  This was one of the 'hidden' costs for us of moving to France.