Clair Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 My English OH has been refused his own CV and is a named dependant on mine.The reason? He has been unable to show a full birth certificate to the French health authorities. He was adopted at birth, has a (short) birth certificate with his adoptive parents'names, but as no maiden name is showing for his adoptive mother, the French system does not accept it.He also has an adoption certificate naming his birth mother and his "birth name" but the UK authories are unable to deliver a full birth certificate (which would show his birth mother's name) as he has not undergone "suitable" counselling as required!!?!Does anyone have a solution to this maddening circle of twisted reasoning?Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 The french authorities always want full certificates and when I arrived insisted that they were officially translated too. You don't give them the proper certificates and they are unable to follow their own rules and laws.It looks like if you want a full certificate is it up to you to chase the UK authorities to get it. The french will then sort this out when they have the proper certificate. OR you could say that he was 'ne sur 'X'' and then adopted see what they say, they may buy that, there again they may not. At least they would understand it. Was that in fact the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Clair Yes I have a solution, don't worry about itIt does not matter that he does not have his own carte vitale if he "is a named dependant on mine" Some CPAM's only issue one card per family. others individual ones with the same number. As long as he is getting his 70 % back on your card and you have the same validity as you would have got from separate cards (if you are on an E106), do not worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 All our birth certificates are the small ones and no one has ever questioned them as being the wrong ones or demanded the bigger more detailed ones. If you do get a problem you can the local mairie to stamp a photocopy with "copie conforme" written on it and this will also satisfy the demandeur. Again goes to show the difference in depts in France regarding official document requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 [quote]Clair Yes I have a solution, don't worry about it It does not matter that he does not have his own carte vitale if he "is a named dependant on mine" Some CPAM's only issue one card per family. o...[/quote]Thanks for the reassurance Ron. He is indeed covered on my card.The problem has raised its head because the temping agency (Adecco) he has registered with is baffled by his not having a CV of his own and don't seem to be able to suggest anything...Will he automatically be attributed a SS number when/if he starts temping?In the meantime and if things remain as they are, what would happen about his cover if I had a fatel accident for instance?Re the French authorities: if no full birth certificate, then no Carte Vitale.Re British authority: if no certificate of counselling against the trauma of discovering what he has always known (from a listed counsellor of about 12 in all of France, with full assermented translation if done from France, with full counselling and travelling costs, plus his/our time), then no full certificate, as he would/could be traumatised about finding out he was adopted, even through he has always know he was "chosen", has his adoption certificate, his birth name, his birth mother's name...!! what a waste of time!Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I don't think that that info is correct Clair.He can apply for a full adoption certificate from the the Adoption Section at the General Registery Office in Southport. They will issue a certificate that is the equivilant to a full birth certificate with the full details of his adoptive parents and the court where the adoption was registered.This agency will only ask for councelling to be done if a full original certificate is required ie that very first birth certificate when the person has not got all the original birth details. If he has his birth mothers name and where he was born etc he could get that too without councelling. I can't see why he would need more than his full adoption certificate though and all he has to do is apply for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 [quote]Thanks for the reassurance Ron. He is indeed covered on my card.The problem has raised its head because the temping agency (Adecco) he has registered with is baffled by his not having a CV of his own ...[/quote]Update:had a tel call from another temping agency he has signed on with (Manpower), offering him a shift at the local Andros factory starting tomorrow. When asked about his CV (or lack of), Manpower said "no problem, we'll deal with the cotisations and the CPAM will give him a SS number".Just like that!!Relief all round, but still cross about the vicious circle mentioned above...Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 [quote]I don't think that that info is correct Clair. He can apply for a full adoption certificate from the the Adoption Section at the General Registery Office in Southport. They will issue a certificate t...[/quote]Interesting... My previous post was based on a letter from the Adoption Section at the General Registery Office in Southport, received after he requested a full birth certificate. When he applied online and paid for a full birth certificate, they sent a "certified copy of an entry in the adopted children register", not the full birth certificate, which he had requested, together with all the gumpf about counselling...TU, according to your post, he should be able to obtain a "normal" full birth certificate, with his adoptive parents details, which is just what he wants really, as he has no interest in knowing anything about his birth.We'll try again then!ClairUpdate: I have called Southport (€€€ ouch!) and it's a resounding NO. They say he cannot obtain a certificate with his mother's maiden name on it and all he can obtain is waht they sent us previously... go figure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Might be worth posting on something like www.rootschat.com or Genes reunited, if there is a way around it I expect someone there would know.Bon Chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 This may help to clear up a couple of things...I was adopted at birth, and therefore have no real birth certificate; just the 'certified copy of an entry' and adoption certificate. I had no problem with either getting a carte vitale or registering a business. Perhaps this does depend on which department you reside in. However, I have heard that others in the same department have had some difficulty as they haven't been able to provide a full birth certificate. If you have been adopted, it is not possible to obtain a copy of your real birth certificate. As soon as the adoption goes through, your real birth certificate will be destroyed (found this info some time ago on my local (UK) council website). I assume that this is to protect your birth parents as technically, they are no longer your parents.If, when you try to register, and you are asked for a full copy, try to explain that it will not be possible - hopefully then, they will accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 A friend of mine discovered that previously unbeknown to her, she had a brother who had been adopted at birth. Through one of the web sites she discovered the place of his birth and date and just wrote and asked for a copy of his birth certificate. The document she received gave his birth name, his birth mothers name, address and profession so I am not sure what you mean by saying 'all records are destroyed'Surely if this was the case we would never hear about people who have found their birth mothers, and consequently, fathers?In fact my own brother was contacted in this way by a child he had no knowledge of and we were all very happy to welcome a new family member.That has been my experience, I appreciate that yours may have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Perhaps the retention of records just depends on which council is responsible, so there may be hope for those who need to obtain a full copy.Whilst reading this, my husband remembered that prior to moving to France, we couldn't find his brith certificate anywhere, and knew it would be needed. I contacted the local authority where he was born, by telephone, and they just sent a new copy...This does seem a little scary in that it appears (depending upon where you are in the UK) that it is possible to just contact a local authority, and they will send a copy of the birth certificate - even if it isn't yours. I wonder how many people have done this so that they can obtain a 'new' passport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 I think that everyone has the record of their birth 'registered' and those records are maintained, but that possibly it was the adoption 'agency' (council) that destroyed your husbands record of adoption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Perhaps, since living in France, my grip on the English language has deteriorated somewhat....In case what I posted has been misconstrued, I shall try to make it even more simple.I was adopted at birth. My husband was not adopted. I am unable to obtain a copy of my birth certificate because the 'issuing' council will not do this. My unadopted husband lost his birth certificate. I (his wife) was able to contact the relevant council and obtain a copy of his birth certificate, simply by stating my unadopted husband's name, date and place of birth. They didn't know who I was, I just sent them a cheque for the cost of a replacement certificate, which they sent within a few days.Please do not reply to posts which you have not read properly. It doesn't surprise me that there is a lot of animosity on here; I simply tried to relate my experiences in the hope that they may be of help to somebody else. However, as per usual, this has been ignored by the 'high-and-mighty' ex-pat community.Au revoir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I apologize unreservedly for any error on my part, but let me clear this up: a) I am not ex pat. b) I have already said that in my opinion it is possible for an adopted person to obtain their proper birth certificate and that an intermediary (these days often referred to as an agency) may be the body which destroys the records.(and frankly I think most agencies these days do not destroy them)Adoption, as you know, is a sensitive subject and I for one would not want anyone to think that were denied even a proper record of their birth. If my friend can obtain a record of her brothers birth,(which I have seen) when all she knew was a name, area and date range I'm surprised the original poster can not get the birth certificate she wants.(given that she says she has certain information already) It seems perverse. Frankly I am quite happy that many records are in the public domain as it has allowed me, among countless others, to trace their ancestry.Oddly though, when I have wanted the exact location of certain graves of my relatives, although helpful, the department that deal with cemeteries in the area I am interested in have been quite cautious as to what information they give. That has sometimes resulted in a sort of Q & A 'game'.>>It doesn't surprise me that there is a lot of animosity on here; I simply tried to relate my experiences in the hope that they may be of help to somebody else. However, as per usual, this has been ignored by the 'high-and-mighty' ex-pat community.<<<I think we are reading different forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I did say that I think that it depends on the local authority responsible for record-keeping. I merely posted what I had seen on the local authority website (where I used to reside), and thought that the information that I found may be of use to others. It is a shame that this situation can occur - one would think that local authorities might, possibly have similar (useful) policies. One can hope."I think we are reading different forums."In terms of reading different forums, I read both. Tempers seem to flare a little more frequently on one of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 In order to add a little order to what has become a very confused discussion ...The registration of births in England and Wales is NOTHING to do with local authorities. Births are registered with the General Registry Office which is a central government activity. The website of the GRO, (www.gro.gov.uk) on its adoption page, states:Upon reaching the age of 18, an adopted person is legally entitled to apply for access to their birth records. The date the adoption took place will determine whether an informal chat with a counsellor is required.This suggests the following:(a) The birth record - the entry into the register made by the local registrar in the local registry office - is not destroyed. (b) "An informal chat" counselling session may not be required.(c) A counselling session may just conclude that a counselling session is not required.Would not the pragmatic solution be that Clair's OH find out what the counselling arrangements are and - perhaps by telephone with a counsellor - agree that counselling is unnecessary? Alternatively, when next in England, could he make a personal visit to the registry office where his birth was registered and speak to a registrar who will have more flexibility to deal with an unusual circumstance than a clerk at the Southport call centre?Incidentally, am I right in believing that it is possible to visit St Catherine's House in London to inspect the Index of births and - for a fee - obtain a copy of any certificate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 There are plenty of sites including the governments own that offer you the chance to order your (or anyone else's) birth certificate, which was how my friend got her brothers. No fuss, no questions, just arrived in the post as per normal. Maybe it was a fluke! I think it was £7 or there abouts.Good Luck........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 [quote]In order to add a little order to what has become a very confused discussion ... The registration of births in England and Wales is NOTHING to do with local authorities. Births are registered with th...[/quote]Thanks ClarkKent for your suggestions... However...From the GRO's own leaflet:"if adopted before 12/11/75, you are required to attend a counselling session with an approved adoption worker....You will be given a form CA6 to send to the court which handled the adoption, asking them to release the name of the agency or social services involved in your adoption if the court still holds that information. Once you have the name of the organisation involved, you will be able to contact them to see if your adoption file still exists.If it does, you may be allowed sight of your file."The counsellor is to be selected form an approved list (supplied by the GRO). We already know a visit to our nearest one will entail an overnight stay.We do not go to England, so your next suggestions are out of the equation. We have a "certificate of birth" which states his birth name, his date and place of birth and an "adoption order" stating his birth name, the name of his birth mother and his date and place of birth, his adopted name and the names of his adoptive parents.We have an original (handwritten) "copy of entry in the adopted children register" with his adopted name, which names his adoptive parents as his parents, as well as his date and place of birth, so we thought obtaining a full certificate was going to be simple. Not so.When we requested a full birth certificate last year, the GRO sent a (typed) "copy of entry in the adopted children register", which is the same as above, together with a letter saying they could not find any entry in their birth records (date and place of birth are the same on all paperwork) and had passed the request on to the Adoption section.All these were rejected by the French authorities as they do not mention his adoptive mother's maiden name.Based on the info obtained by telephone from the GRO last year and earlier this week, I think it is clear he will not be able to get a full birth certificate.ClairPS: we have looked into this from every angle we could think of, but if anyone thinks they can get it for him, please PM me.PPS: I thought I would edit this to clarify something:we are not trying to obtain a birth certificate with his birth parents details (he is not interested in finding anything out, not curious, not searching, not yearning, he knows her name and has never considered doing anything about it). We were simply asking for a full birth certificate which would simply show his adoptive parents as his parents, just like any other British citizen... You'd think that if they adopted him (and his brother and his sister, all from different birth parents), you'd think they would be named as his/their parents... Wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Wouldn't the French authorities accept an additional document, his adoptive mothers marriage certificate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 [quote]Wouldn't the French authorities accept an additional document, his adoptive mothers marriage certificate ?[/quote]Tried that, the maiden name must be mentioned on the same paper (birth certificate)Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 Hi againAs this thread seems to have been of interest to a few people, I thought I'd update it with the latest news:Re Carte Vitale: my OH has just received an "Attestation" from the CPAM with his own SS number. This came about after he had paid some contributions from a few days work at the local jam factory and they'd sent a few forms to complete. I called and explained he did not have a birth certificate, they asked me to explain the situation in writing and now it appears it's all done and dusted!!Re the birth certificate: we eventually decided to ask for & pay online for his original birth certificate, which we have now obtained from the GRO. As he already knew his birth name and birth mother's name, there was not much else to learn (her address and occupation at the time), even if he'd wanted to learn anything to begin with!Anyway, it ties everything together (birth + adoption) in case we need to justify it at all.At the same time, I was still trying to obtain a "Livret de Famille" from the French Consulate in London (I'm a French national, married a British national in a registry office in UK, never bothered with French Consulate, as they're the worse bunch of ******** in the whole of French Red-Tapedom), and THEY refused to accept his adoption certificate!!!Back to square one!!Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutts Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 No........ I haven't read the whole thread although I WAS under the impression that adoption certificates could be freely obtained. If you want some expert (free) advice on this, subscribe to:[email protected]Send an email with "subscribe" in the heading and message body. Await your replies, then "unsubscribe" in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Goign back to the post that expressed concern that these certificates were freely available by post you might recall that this is exactly the process "the Jackal" used in Frederick Forsyths book to gain a false identity. Only recently one of the tabloid press repeated the trick and managed to get, ironically, Frederick Forsyths birth certificate and eventually credit cards in his name too. (with, I beleive, his permission to write an expose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Taylor Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Just a few clarifications:ALL BMD certificates (birth, marriage and death) are a "certified copy of an entry...". They also bear big words at the bottom: "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY".The GRO [General Register Office] is at the ONS [Office of National Statistics] in Southport. The Registrar General holds the quarterly copies made of entries in the locally held original BMD registers.The local Register Office (not "Registry"!) holds the original registers of BMDs, other than church chapel or synagogue marriage registers currently in use. Certificates made by these offices are usually handwritten, are sometimes typewritten, and a few offices have the facility make facsimiles of the original entry in the register. Local authorities vary in their willingness and efficiency when asked to provide certificates - they're there primarily to deal with the living and recently dead rather than historic enquiries. Some will go overboard to help, others will not issue older certificates at all. (The GRO reference number is of no use to local offices.) "Tay" is incorrect in saying that a "real birth certificate" is destroyed. This just cannot be done - there's no huge repository of certificates, just big books containing the entries. No entries can ever be corrected or destroyed."Clarkkent", you'd not get any joy from St Catherine's House, the registers were moved from there in about 1997, to the Family Records Centre (FRC) in Myddelton Street (Islington), which is run jointly by the GRO and the Public Record Office (PRO). The material held at the FRC includes indexes of births marriages and deaths in England and Wales since 1837; indexes of legal adoptions in England and Wales since 1927; and the PRO's most widely consulted documents - population census returns for England and Wales from 1841 to 1891.The GRO indexes are also in larger libraries in the UK and online at www.1837online.com (you have to pay but it's a small charge). (For family history purposes there is an ongoing transcription project available at www.freebmd.org.uk , free, but you won't find much past 1910 yet.) Once you have the GRO reference from the index you can order the cert online from ONS. It will cost 7 UK pounds if you know the GRO reference, 11 UKP if you don't.HTHJo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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