french casualty department

[Teamedup]

La vette, post or don't.  My very first post attracted a far worse assault than the silly little side swipe/snipe at me. So it apparently  doesn't make any difference how many posts I make, seems there will always be people who don't like me or my posts. Tant pis and gallic shrug. The only reason I posted in the first place was because there was too much pink fluff on here which didn't reflect the France I had lived in for so long.

 

Bureaucracy in France isn't as bad as it was. It used to be really bad. And even a lot of the fonctionnaires are a lot pleasanter than they ever were. I just tell it as I find it, usually.

But do you know quite often I cannot. The petit sensibilities of some posters I suspect cannot be offended too often. Hence I didn't post about my hospital stay in it's truly terrible detail. Or when I had to go in for tests again and the anethstatist asked me why I was so nervous and I said because I was convinced that after everything else they had done to me that I would not wake up, how was that for confidence in the world's best health service.

I suppose no one wants to know the ops I have been told about in the last two years that have gone wrong? And I am still talking about France here. My France obviously and not the other France.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="hastobe"]In the UK the standard of treatment you get depends on where you live. [/quote]

Just like France, then!  [:)]

At the moment we have one doctor in our village of 2000 souls. 

We are part of France's 8th largest city, yet our nearest A&E is 20km away, and ALL our contacts with Montpellier hospitals have involved long waits and rude staff. 

I truly dread the prospect of needing to go there again. 

 

[La Vette]

I recounted the experience I had.  It is different for everyone.  I dont apologise for being pink and fluffy about my experience, I was frightened and in pain and was happy to be treated so well.  As an ex-nurse with other nurses in the family I know the staff in NHS hospitals do the best they can and coming from a small market town in the UK had good hospital experiences there (local hospital run by the local army base staff plus civvies).  I was just happy to let people know that there is nothing to be afraid of even if your French is not all that good (I get by) and everything else was a bonus.

When I told a French friend of my experience she could not understand why I was so surprised at the excellent, efficient treatment - c'est normale.  So not only have I been slated by people on this forum but by my French friend.

Teamedup - I will not let a few snipes put me off - I was being ironic!!

[Poppy]

I have previously posted about my experiences of the French health service. Everything has been negative and I have nightmares about being ill in France. Last time I said this on the Forum I was told to leave France which is why I haven't posted re health since.. However I feel I have to mention the following. English neighbour visited the local A&E, the staff were very rude and she was told to see her doctor. French neighbour visited the same A&E and couldn't praise the service enough and I am a witness to the amazing after care. I won't say anymore [blink]

[Gardian]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

La vette, post or don't.  My very first post attracted a far worse assault than the silly little side swipe/snipe at me. So it apparently  doesn't make any difference how many posts I make, seems there will always be people who don't like me or my posts. Tant pis and gallic shrug. The only reason I posted in the first place was because there was too much pink fluff on here which didn't reflect the France I had lived in for so long.

Bureaucracy in France isn't as bad as it was. It used to be really bad. And even a lot of the fonctionnaires are a lot pleasanter than they ever were. I just tell it as I find it, usually.

But do you know quite often I cannot. The petit sensibilities of some posters I suspect cannot be offended too often. Hence I didn't post about my hospital stay in it's truly terrible detail. Or when I had to go in for tests again and the anethstatist asked me why I was so nervous and I said because I was convinced that after everything else they had done to me that I would not wake up, how was that for confidence in the world's best health service.

I suppose no one wants to know the ops I have been told about in the last two years that have gone wrong? And I am still talking about France here. My France obviously and not the other France.

[/quote]

If "There are people who don't like me or my posts", you may care to reflect, not so much over what you say, but 'the way you tell em'.

Everyone has different experiences and can only speak as they find.  That doesn't mean that you need to accuse others, who have posted in good faith, of  'pink fluffiness'.  Rude, confrontational and counter-productive.  

[Russethouse]

Gardian, Some posters are more outspoken than others, just as in real life. I think this is not the first time you have commented about Tu's posts, if there is something to report, then do so, if not perhaps it would be best to avoid reading this members contributions.

La Vette, for the record both TU and I have high numbers of posts because we have both been here several years and we have never lost our post totals, where as nearly every one else has lost them at least once, some people twice, during forum software changes.

[Teamedup]

Gardien the truth is that I find pink fluffy very unhelpful. How on earth can it help anyone. I believe rightly or wrongly that it is the pink and fluffy that had drawn people to France in the first place and  it could still lull people into believing certain things that might be far from the truth of what would really happen to them in the same situation. AND a lot of people daren't post bad experiences because they might get jumped on.

AND if you think that the pink fluffies get jumped on on here,well there is enough pink fluffyness that still goes on on here and just look at how much is on the tv and in Uk papers about France, so pink fluffness gets more than it's fair share. So me and a few other little voices kick up from time to time as we don't appreciate it or like it.

 True I haven't lost my posts. So what. I was attacked when I made my very first post, just took one. So comments about the number of my posts, whatever the number is, is really water off a ducks back.

I have to say that I didn't expect my hospital stay to be as it was. Not at all. I was not badly treat because I was english either, the first lady who shared the room on the ward was treat poorly and the second, well it was a downright disgrace. AND when we said something, we were told to put up and shut up as we could do nothing about anything. Only I did do something and won a little victory, but certainly not the war. I should go and get a medical problem sorted out, I have not the courage to do it, I am just not up to it after what happened last year.

'the way you tell em'.............. am I  supposed to be liked or loved on here. I don't know how to post any differently anyway, and I have no complexes about me or who I am.

In real life I am softly spoken and actually rather pleasant usually, and when I  hear things I disagree with and then with a soft voice,( if I raise it I squeak, so I don't,) I will disagree with a passion. So how different will I be to most of the french people around me? It isn't as if I would stick out or anything, now is it?

 

 

[La Vette]

If I look back at my original post on this subject I find it difficult to understand what I have done that is so wrong to upset not only TU but now Russett - a moderator at that.  I think I need to curl up in a corner and stick pins in my eyes for the crime I have committed.

[Clair]

I don't think Russethouse is upset, merely replying to / clarifying your comment about large number of posts.

As for TU, anything positive about France seems to generate a contrary reply, so it's not personal! [:D]

[Russethouse]

 I'm not upset La Vette, and I doubt TU is either, but you did comment on the number of posts

>>>Mind you, when you have made more than 5,000 posts it is not difficult to see that you sit at your computer waiting for a chance to have a go at someone.  You know who I mean<<

I have just explained why we have higher post numbers than many other long term members

BTW My experience of our local NHS hospital is very good and they even have dishy doctors [:D]

[Teamedup]

[quote user="Clair"]I don't think Russethouse is upset, merely replying to / clarifying your comment about large number of posts.
As for TU, anything positive about France seems to generate a contrary reply, so it's not personal! [:D]
[/quote]

 

 

Clair, I know you are french, but frankly, do you actually imagine in real life I could be saying as many 'bad' things about France as the average french person. I don't.  In REAL life, I actually have to stick up for France quite a lot and will get shouted down for trying to put a positive note on some things......... surely you know how it is[8-)]

 

[Will]

I think maybe the difference is that French people will whinge, endlessly and vehemently, about aspects of French life. But if a non-French person, in France, says anything derogatory about France or anyting French, that is not acceptable and the French will qute likely turn around to defend their country.

Just one of the differences between them and the majority of the English, who moan like b***ery about Britain and have no desire to defend their country. As evidenced by most of the posts on forums like this.

[Clair]

[quote user="Teamedup"]Clair, I know you are french, but frankly, do you actually imagine in real life I could be saying as many 'bad' things about France as the average french person. I don't.  In REAL life, I actually have to stick up for France quite a lot and will get shouted down for trying to put a positive note on some things......... surely you know how it is[8-)] [/quote]

I was merely referring to the fact that the views you express usually show a darker side of France or French life.

I often do not recognise the experiences you describe in such dark terms but it does not make your opinions any less valid than the opinions of those who describe a more positive side of their life here.[:)]

Yes I too find myself "explaining England" in France (why do they sit in a bath full of beans???) as I had to "explain France" in England (why do they blockade the ferry ports???)[:)]

Whether I am French, English or Martian has no relevance here. It's all based on personal knowledge and experience.

[Patf]

Teamedup - I'm not sure why you become so upset and disparaging with what you call pink fluffy stories, attitudes etc. It's as if they were a mortal sin. But I prefer that outlook to a black prickly one. I suppose the ideal is a combination -  the "golden mean". Pat.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Patf"]But I prefer that outlook to a black prickly one. [/quote]

I hope no-one is implying that TU (or her outlook) is black and prickly.  [blink]

I think she sounds like she'd fit right in in France.  And you know, I think she does!  [:D]

[Gemini_man]

La Vette - going back to your original post: I've lived in La Belle Dordogne 15 years and have 2 children one of whom competes in high level judo and I've spent a few hours at Les Urgences over the years - my experience is that the service is usually excellent and extremely thorough but I can't compare it to the NHS as I try not to spend too much time in the UK [8-)] - personally I find the health service generally in France is excellent but my doctor insists on telling me it's "going the way of the British Health Care system" - can't say I agree with him yet!!

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

Just like France, then!  [:)]

At the moment we have one doctor in our village of 2000 souls. 

We are part of France's 8th largest city, yet our nearest A&E is 20km away, and ALL our contacts with Montpellier hospitals have involved long waits and rude staff. 

I truly dread the prospect of needing to go there again. 

 [/quote]

I live in the same area as Rumzi, although not such a small village so far from Montpellier.  I have only used the emergency

service in our small town of 6,500, not in Montpellier.  An excellent

service, 24/7, although like most French businesses, staff could use a bit of

formation on treating people like the people who pay their wages, instead of

slight nuisances.  The speed at which things happen in that clinic is

quite amazing.  So far.  But our mayor battled for the place. 

Maybe Rumzi needs a more pro-active mayor.

I also go into the big city hospitals in Montpellier for more regular care,

more often than I would like.  I have had one complaint about one doctor,

and one other who could use a little "be nice to people"

training.  Otherwise the ambulance service, the drugs given according to

need not cost, the number of nurses, the food, the rooms and the level of care

is streets above what I had in the UK, for both the nephrology and gastroenterology  side. 

The CHU hospital in Montpellier is tops in France according to the official

rankings, and France is tops in the world.  There is data and experience

other than personal ones, looking at the rankings.  Mind you, one can

complain about the rankings too.  Back to personal experience.  My

general reaction to French doctors and nurses is that they are as good as the

UK ones, but everything else around orthodox medical care is loads better and better

funded.  Alternative medicine is another story entirely.  I suppose

it does not matter to most of you who seem to have no serious ongoing medical

problems requiring hospitalisation, but the wards in the UK are a

nightmare.  Here, it is against the law to have more than one other patient

 in your en suite room.  I usually

am alone.  For "real patients" that makes a huge

difference.  People who come from the UK can't believe there ARE NO WARDS

in France.

 

I do admit that as in the UK, I take an active patient line, as all the medical

personnel can make mistakes.

As for the private public waffles, in France the difference is negligible. I

can never go to a private BUPA place in the UK, and if I use a private place

here, all is transparent, I sometimes don't even know it is private.  I

don't even need to ask.  It all works.  Obviously those of you who

choose to live in the middle of nowhere are not going to get great care. 

For one thing most doctors don't like to live in the middle of nowhere.  And

unless there is tax base, who exactly is going to pay for the great hospitals

for no one much.

And Will, you have alluded to this “bankrupt” nature of the French system more

than once.  What exactly do you mean and where exactly did you get this

information?  I would like to check it out.  Are you saying that

because the government chooses not to fund  the system, and therefore it

is "losing money", this means it is bankrupt?  And if like a

normal company, the health system is deeply in debt or bankrupt, do you

think they will shut it down and sell off all the assets?  Many countries

are also "in debt", some like the USA are way in debt.  France

is in debt.  Does this mean much?  Not really.  What difference

is there for you between being bankrupt and not getting enough government

funding?  I genuinely don't get your point.

[Will]

13V - 'bankrupt' in the figurative sense rather than the literal. Yes, the French health system is, according to doctors and pharmacists in France and what I read in the French papers, in serious debt. The doctors tell me that it cannot go on like that, and I see their point. France is not much different in that respect from many other countries, and, like other countries, France has a national debt. In France's case I read that the health system is responsible, by itself, for the size of the national debt.

It obviously cannot go on, and slowly the problem is being addressed. The 'extra euro' you pay the doctor and which is not refunded is one small step towards that, as is the 'medicin traitant' scheme itself which cuts down on the multiple prescriptions from several doctors. Perhaps the most significant way of paying off the health service debt and trying to limit it in future is the CSG/CRDS, which I understand were introduced for that purpose.

I also say frequently that comparing the French system with the NHS is fruitless, it is far closer to the UK private sector. In fact imagine the BUPA and Nuffield hospitals with substantial government subsidies and you have something very close to the basis of the French system. But I will ignore my own advice, and point out that in the NHS the financial crisis shows up through lack of funding, which is visible to the user in things like waiting lists, lack of beds, poor facilities and money-grabbing practices with things like parking at hospitals (to name just one recent controversy). Other things make it worse, like the Private Finance Initiative that merely seems to increase total costs but reduce services, and the fact that in order to oversee the cash-saving more tiers of bureaucrats have to be added who are funded from the same pot that is supposed to fund health care, medicines etc.

In France the financial crisis is not apparent to the user. The practice is to provide what is required and pay for it afterwards. A laudable aim, but is it sustainable? That is the crucial question. Arguably, the true cost of the French system, and its true state, can never be known. Rather than one body - the NHS - at the centre of all funding issues, France has a multi-tier system with literally hundreds of caisses funding primary medical care - some organised regionally, others by the trades or professions of their subscribers. These are controlled by multiple tiers of bureaucracy - CPAM, CANAM, CRAM, RSI, MSA etc to name just a few. So I can easily believe what I am told and what I read about costs being out of control, but very difficult to pinpoint or to cure. The traditional French solution to such a problem seems to be to throw more cash or more fonctionnaires at it - but of course this has to be paid for some time in the future. I really cannot imagine the service being shut down, that would be unthinkable, though if you take the 'company' allusion then bankruptcy in the true sense of the word could happen, and the service would then, presumably, have to be bailed out by central government with an even more severe dent in the national debt. Remember that a debt, even a government one, has to be serviced, through interest, so it is not something that can just be ignored indefinitely all the time the system appears to be working.

It's a difficult one, because a radical reform of France's beloved health system (remember that France has a reputation for being a nation of hypochondriacs) is hardly a vote-winning strategy for any politician. Lower cotisations might be, but the health insurance component is only one of several (and retirement funds are, if I read correctly, in a similar parlous state). Whereas the way the NHS is organised does at least allow the proverbial bull to be taken by the horns, however unsavory the short-term results may be, the action is being taken for long-term good. Though how effective this will be is another debating point altogether.

So it is a political issue rather than one that directly affects the user, who, in the main, sees an excellent level of service. But for how long? - that is the point behind my argument, and I think behind what the doctors and commentators say. So I admit 'bankrupt' is probably not the right word if you take it literally. Instead, read 'unsustainable'. Sorry to go on at length. It's probably easier to use a tabloid heading like 'bankrupt' rather than try to explain that every time.

[Quillan]

I think from what I have read is that like the UK France can be a bit of a 'post code lottery' with regards to hospitals but without so many bad ones.

Fortunately I have never had to use A&E in France although I know directly a few who have. The hospitals involved were Carcassonne and Toulouse and those that used them claimed they were excellent. In both cases ambulances were called and paramedics were in attendance and when they got to A&E they went in straight away and were dealt with. From my personal experience in the UK having suffered a several heart attacks all within four weeks I was dealt with the same way, my problems, which were many and horrendous were only after I left the Cardiac Care unit. On the other side when turning up with broken limbs and other injuries over the years I have had to wait ages. Perhaps it's the same in France.

The health care we have received in France as outpatients has been excellent in it's professionalism and speed. The wife visited the doctors in the morning who gave us a prescription for an x-ray which was done in the afternoon and we returned to the doctor on the same day. He then booked and appointment with an ENT specialist in Carcassonne for the following morning. Saw the specialist who gave us a prescription for a scan. We walked in to the scanner reception; they did it straight away although we waited 15 minutes for the letter to be typed. Back to the specialist in the afternoon who gave us a prescription for drugs, the problem is now fixed. That’s two days and although it’s not exactly life threatening stuff (although very unpleasant) I call that quick, when we had the same problem in the UK it took months and months.

Reading TU's and others comments about not receiving the same level of care and time delays I think it does become obvious after a while that some areas of France are more better off than others which is a shame. The only problem is that many of us never know how good or bad the service will be till we have to use it and we can only speak as we find.

 

[Teamedup]

You can get immediate scans? Even when I was very ill they left me in a corridor at A&E from around 9am until 11pm when they got me in.

My next scan had to be booked and I had a several month wait. That was at the end of last May and I still haven't had the results in spite of my GP phoning on several occassions when I was in his surgery. I would have got them if I had waited, however the potions they give to drink, and I always have to have two carafs and not one like everyone else, actually make me ill, as does that stuff they inject which 'tastes' like meths smells. So after my scan, I had to go straight home as there were no services available for me to lie down or run to the loo.

My neighbour is a secretary at the hospital. The shelves with records on fell down in her office and the management suggested that one of the women got their mari bricoleur to fix it.

I don't understand this, there is money in this region, so why have we got what we have got and the poorer regions of France are bang up to date and can waltz in and get all this remarkable treatment. It makes no sense to me at all. I am not suggesting that we have 'better' than anyone else, but parity would be rather nice. I know that the city hospital is not well equipped as my other neighbour moved here from Lille and was surprised as to how badly equipped it was when she started work there.

[More2Learn]

La Vette bless her sat down and scribed a simple post to put those people minds at rest who are living or coming to live in France.

 'Hey people, the health service here isn't that bad and it functions very well'.

From the replies and flames you would have though she has committed a mortal sin, she has expressed her opinion and that's that, why has everyone got to get on her case.

My exposure to the system is about the same as hers, an injured and scared loved one taken in and sorted out with calm efficiency and not a long wait. It might not be the same elsewhere in France but happily thats how I found it here. I don't speak French either, but muddled through with patience.

My exposure to the NHS has been vastly different over the years, as far as I am concerned my best memories were in the days of Emergency Ward 10.  Matron, Sisters and Nurses in clean starched uniforms and you could eat off the floor. Now they don't stay clean because of all the managemnt and efficiency experts walking around with clipboards doing exactly nothing to the front end service do not help the place run properly.

IMHO the NHS is mortally wounded and will now never  be able to provide what it was set up for,  as long as the tiers of management remain in place the beast is bleeding to death through dire inefficiency.

More2Learn.

 

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="More2Learn"]

From the replies and flames you would have though she has committed a mortal sin, she has expressed her opinion and that's that, why has everyone got to get on her case.

More2Learn.

[/quote]

I suppose if someone had started a thread entitled ‘French Casualty Department’ and gone on to relate a bad experience, no one would have contributed good experience stories.

Perhaps La Vette should have added ‘good experience stories only wanted on this thread’’. [8-)]

 

[Teamedup]

[:D] Bad LG, ofcourse they would as only 'me' and a couple of others have had bad experiences and apparently everyone else and everyone french they know must have all had good ones. My isn't it just amazing really.

I wouldn't dream of posting about what has really happened to people I know when it has gone wrong. And I do know quite a lot of people who have had problems.

My husbands knee surgery was a great success, there you go, a good story.

 

[oglefakes]

As I will be setting up later this year as an Artisan and will no doubt be visiting my local urgence from time to time (based on previous scars) I would only like to see positive postings from now on [:D]

Re the  NHS, most of my experiences have been very positive, keeping in mind that it tries to provide a free service to almost 60 million people, using finite funds. I had BUPA through my employer, just in case we were victim to 'postcode' waiting lists. For example, my wife had really bad eczema, to the point where it was weeping, and she was told to wait 14 months to see a specialist. We saw one privately and his advice was useless anway. "Don't wet your hands". She sorted it within weeks on our own!!

Friends of ours have a young daughter who couldn't keep any food down. They were advised that the child had a "blockage" and that it would be six weeks before she could see a specialist.  I had to wait nine (excruciating) months for my gallbladder to be removed. My GP flatout refused to refer me to a private specialist for ideological reasons. When I finally met the NHS surgeon, he advised that I could have had it done in a matter of weeks privately and that HE would most likely have done the op!.

My OH was an NHS GP's receptionist and told me that the same old dears would come in every week  - some came in for multiple visits each week - simply for some attention/someone to talk to. She thought it was sweet. I think it sad and wrong. They need a social service, not a medical service. There are other drains on it like people calling ambulances because they burnt their finger on a cooker etc, or that plonker who's parents live near a hospital, so he would call for an ambulance when he needed a lift. (he should have been jailed IMHO) but an ambulance service spokesman said (at the time) that they knew what he was up to, but didn't have the authority to tell himhe was a prat and refuse to attend.

Despite my left leanings, I think it is naive to think a free system can work well as it will always be clogged up with 'silly' cases. Personally I think the systems that work well are where there is a small - sometimes a token - fee for treatments. A system that says "we will treat your cancer for FREE, but you may have to wait until it's inoperable" isn't really free.

Oh, and in my last UK based job, I was paying 159 quid per month in N.I. contributions, of which (a former NHS manager!) pointed out, has a health component, not much different to what other countries pay for private/faster care. The NHS is noble, but also ideological and abused.

Didn't mean to ramble, but it must be the five coffees I had in that last two hours [:)]

[RumziGal]

[quote user="More2Learn"]

an injured and scared loved one taken in and sorted out with calm efficiency[/quote]

And have you considered that others might have been in the same position, injured and scared, and been treated badly?

Maybe the reactions are just a little bit of post-trauma something-or-other?   There's plenty of sympathy for maltreated dogs around these forums, how about sparing a bit for maltreated humans?  [:)]