E121 validity NI contributions

[Hester2]

Having finally decided that I will have to get to grips with sorting out our health cover one way or another before January, in order to help me look at all the very many variables I would be grateful if anyone could help with the following points:

Has anyone received their E121 form whilst reaching 60/65 and living in France for which part of their eligiblity to UK pension has been made up of paying NI contributions whilst living in France rather than working in the UK?  I ask this because part of my decision making rests on my definitely being entitled to an E121 in a couple of year's time.  I have always assumed that it would be available on receipt of a UK state pension, but am now beginning to wonder if their might be some loopholes, such as it meaning full UK state pension.

Does anyone have an E121 who is only receiving a proportion of the UK state pension, ie didn't have enough NI contributions for the full amount but were still eligible to the E121?   Again this will help me to decide whether to top up my four year's needed to bring me up to the full pension, or use the money towards private health care. 

I too am going to look into self-employment but I wouldn't like to reach 60 only to find that I am not eligible for the E121 and at that point might possibly not be able to enter Private Insurance if any illnesses develop between now and then. 

Thanks.

 

 

[cooperlola]

The only way to be really certain that you would qualify for an E121, would be to contact the DWP centre for non residents, as they have your full contribution history.  But the theory certainly is that if you qualify for any sort of state pension, then yes, you get an   E121.  But to be really safe, as I say, ask.

[daisymay]

I reached my 'seniority' in September. I did not get the full pension amount as I did not have enough years but my E121 came as standard.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="daisymay"]I reached my 'seniority' in September. I did not get the full pension amount as I did not have enough years but my E121 came as standard.[/quote]

Pardon the personal question, but.... do you have, or can you have an older (but not retirement age) spouse "piggy-backed" onto your E 121?

[Hester2]

Thanks for your replies, especially reassuring to see that someone has been in the same position as I will be without the full number of years.

[5-element]

[quote user="daisymay"]I reached my 'seniority' in September. I did not get the full pension amount as I did not have enough years but my E121 came as standard.[/quote]

Snap. I only have 29 qualifying years, not full state pension, but still got an E121 (although I had to ring Newcastle and ask for it, they didn't send it to me automatically).

[Benjamin]

Steve

Mrs Benjamin is over 60 and in receipt of a UK pension so qualifies for an E121. I am not yet 60 (never mind 65!) but I am included as a dependant. I know it's not exactly the situation you are asking about where I suspect you are talking about a male who is aged somewhere between 60 and 65 with a wife who has a retired person's E121.

So long as you qualify as a dependant then I can't see the difference in either case.

[sunshine 2]

Hester - the DWP in Newc will tell you how many years you need in order to qualify for an E121 - but from memory I think it is 11 years of NI contributions (at any time of your life so v early ones can count).  I believe I read it on their web site under the E121 info section but can't be certain. In any event, voluntary contributions do not count - they have to be contributions made while you were working.   

[powerdesal]

Thanks Benjamin, thats just the info I wanted. I just need to be dependent on my wife!!!! ( I guess I am anyway) [:P]

[Poppy]

[quote user="sunshine 2"]Hester - the DWP in Newc will tell you how many years you need in order to qualify for an E121 - but from memory I think it is 11 years of NI contributions (at any time of your life so v early ones can count).  I believe I read it on their web site under the E121 info section but can't be certain. In any event, voluntary contributions do not count - they have to be contributions made while you were working.   [/quote]

Sunshine, I have done a search on DWP site without success and too late to telephone them until Monday. Do you know if the 11 years NI contribution have to be at full rate or whether the dreaded married woman's rate counts. I always thought that if you were in receipt of some percentage of OAP  then you qualified for an E121 but you have started me thinking/panicking.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Slow down a bit here folks - there have been several references in other threads about the role/definition of dependant - if you're a spouse, dependant, whatever and you earn more than the person with the E form, it MAY - BIG MAY at the moment - be the case that despite what the UK says, the French may not see a person with a larger income as a dependant for health care.

Something I'm trying to chase down at the moment with CPAM.

[Poppy]

Tony, many thanks for trying to slow us down and for your efforts re dependants. I read this thread as being about eligibility for an E121 and unfortunately can't telephone DWP until Monday so guess red medicine necessary for the weekend.

[Sunday Driver]

Tony

Under the EU wide reciprocal arrangements, the E form is acceptable without question and all dependants approved and listed by the issuing member state must be accepted for cover by the host member state. 

Besides, affiliation under an E form is not on a contributory basis, so income is not assessed as part of the application.

 

 

[sunshine 2]

Sorry Poppy I don't know about the married woman's contributions - I was referring to voluntary contributions made for example if you retire to France but carry on making voluntary NI contributions. 

[Tony F Dordogne]

SD is of course right in theory - but as we seem to be seeing more and more, the gap between theory - what a state is supposed to do - and practice - what states, including France, the UK, Greece and Spain - actually do is something completely different.

My understanding is that there is a legal definition of dependant and income is, or can be, taken into account when making that assessment.  So even if the UK says it's ok, the host state may take a different view.

[Helen]

Poppy

You can obtain an E121 if  you are of retirement age and in receipt of a state pension.

If you have been paying full rate national insurance you will receive a pension based on the number of years you have paid. This can range from 25% of the full pension if you have paid the minimum number of years to qualify (about 10 years ), right up to the full amount. It will be paid to you at 60 (until 2010 when it starts rising to 65) .

Only years paid at the full rate count. These  include years at school from 16 to your 19th birthday and the years you worked before you opted for the married woman's reduced rate. The years you may have spent looking after children may also affect the pension entitlement. In particular any time that you spent looking after children under 16, after 1978,  and  at the same time a married woman's election was not in force you would be credited with contributions for those years.

 When the law was introduced In 1978 it was possible to revoke your election by  by filling in a declaration. After 1978 if  you returned to work after a break of more than  two years the election would automatically have been rescinded but  credits would not have been gained retrospectively. (sorry if thats not clear its hard to explain)

If you are a married woman and do not qualify for a pension based on your own contributions, you are automatically entitled to a pension on your husband's contributions. This is only payable when your husband reaches age 65 and is receiving his pension and you are 60 or over.

You can get a pension forecast online (if you retire before 2010) at

http://www.thepensionservice.gov.uk/resourcecentre/e-services/home.asp

 

[Poppy]

Sunshine and Helen many thanks for your replies. I wiil get a pension about 70% in my own right at sixty  based on an assortment of contributions, full; married womans; voluntary and some years with a mix of working and voluntary. I always thought you could get an E121 (irrespective of type of NI contributions) if you were in receipt of an old age pension.  The opening poster has however started me thinking  this might not be the case. I have searched the DWP site but can't find any relevant info. Will keep searching over the weekend and telephone DWP on Monday. Will be a long weekend as the outcome definitely decides whether we return to UK or not. [:(]

[KathyF]

Sorry, Poppy, but married women's rate contributions definitely do NOT count toward the state pension.  I paid the married women's rate and forgot to revoke the election when I was made redundant and took early retirement at the age of 52.  It automatically lapsed after 2 years, but by then I hadn't enough years left before I reached 60 to reach the minimum 10 qualifying years for the state pension. I only discovered too late that you can't pay voluntary contributions for any years during which you were covered by the married women's election, even if you weren't working and paying contributions during those years. I have 9 years. [:(]  Under the new pension system which will come into effect in 2010, any contributions at all will result in some level of pension, but I'm too old for that...

[Poppy]

Oh dear KathyF so disappointing to have 9 years and be so near. If only, back in the old days, we had had the information and publicity that is available on everything now.

[nomoss]

 

If you have worked and paid contributions in more than one EU country, the total years in all countries is used by each country to decide elegibility.

The amount paid by each country is calculated from the proportion of years of contributions paid in that country compared with the number of years required for a full pension in that country.

You have to contact each country individually to apply. They then chat to each other and decide how much each will pay.

You need a claim form from each country. It is also worth getting a Pension Forecast from UK; they will also tell you on this how many years you can pay voluntarily and how much your pension will increase for each extra year paid in this way, so you can see whether it is worth paying some or all these. You can back-pay 5 years, advance pay until age 65 for men, 60 for women at present - until this rises in stages to 65.

Unfortunately, they will not take into account payments made in other countries for the Forecast.

This information is a couple or so years old, maybe the procedure has been simplified. I haven't come across much EC procedure which has, tho'.

 

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

SD is of course right in theory - but as we seem to be seeing more and more, the gap between theory - what a state is supposed to do - and practice - what states, including France, the UK, Greece and Spain - actually do is something completely different.

My understanding is that there is a legal definition of dependant and income is, or can be, taken into account when making that assessment.  So even if the UK says it's ok, the host state may take a different view.

[/quote]

According to the infamous Social Security website:

Affiliation à la CMU pour les ressortissants britanniques inactifs

2) Il n'y a aucune modification pour les personnes qui peuvent présenter une attestation (E 106 ou E 121) de droit aux prestations d'assurance maladie délivrée par l'administration britannique. Ils continuent à pouvoir s'inscrire auprès de la CPAM de leur lieu de résidence pour bénéficier des prestations françaises servies pour le compte du régime britannique, aussi longtemps que ces attestations sont valables.

Key phrase:  "certificate of healthcare entitlement issued by the British government".  If the DWP issues such a certificate which includes a dependant, then the CPAM have no choice but to accept it.  There is no means testing because the French benefits are 'servies pour la compte du régime britannique'.

 

[nomoss]

Sorry I didn't reply to this part of your question, Hester2.

Has anyone received their E121 form whilst reaching 60/65 and living in France for which part of their eligiblity to UK pension has been made up of paying NI contributions whilst living in France rather than working in the UK? 

Answer - basically Yes. We received E121's from UK, although part of our elegibility was due to payments in another EU country.

We could maybe have requested them from the other country, but I'm sure they can sort this out themselves.

[lacote0_0]

Sorry if this question has already been addressed elswehere, but does the widowed dependant of the person holding the E121 continue to be entitled to healthcare even though not entitled to an E121 in his/ her own right?

[sunshine 2]

Lacote - I believe we had a thread about this a while ago and the upshot was that the rules about this changed recently and the widow/widower was now only entitled to a further 12 months cover after death of the E121 holder - it used to be a much longer period.

[lacote0_0]

Many thanks. I feared as much.