Must I pay Contributions Sociales in France

[brillow12]

I wonder if anyone has some advice for me.

Here are my circumsatnces:  I am below state retirement age (I am 42) but due to very poor health I retired in the UK last year.  I was granted a private pension from my company final salary pension scheme (they do still exist :-)

Also due to my ill health I receive Incapacity Benefit in the UK, this is Long Term.   I do not receive money from the IB (due to my private pension as this element of IB is means tested) but they do pay all my National Insurance and will do so until I reach normal retirement age.

The UK authorities had no problem issuing me an E121 and when I presented it to the French Authorities I was met with complete disbelief.  They seemed unable to comprehemn that a person of 42 year could have an E121.  They (as many others) seem to suppose that an E121 is ONLY for people past STATE retirement age and an E106 is for ALL others.  I have even had a certain company of Experts tell me this and argue that I can only get an E106 while I have the E121 in my hand?? 

In part it is why I ask you guys... I have seen some extremly well informed discussions on this site.... from car registration to  hedge cutting.... Seems some people still think that becoming an ex...pat automatically makes one an ex...pert.

Anyway, eventually, with considerable help from the UK, the French System did accept that I was entittled to an E121 and I now get all my health care in France free of charge ... (free being a relative term as I have paid NI for many years and the UK IB continues to pay.... my NI and......  France did sign up to the reciprocol agreements etc...).

So.. to my question..  I actually have two:

First: I have been asked to pay Cotribution Sociales here in France.  I have asked the French Authorities if it is possible that I may be exempt on the basis that my Social Security is effectively being paid by virtue of the recipricol arrangement (as NI is paid for me in the UK)They say "No".    This seems unfiar as I shall never draw state pension in France and I already have the E121.  Why should I pay effectivelt via the recipricol agreement and again here?  This seems illogical to me.

Due to the fact that they initially said "no" to my E121 I wonder am I getting the same sort of response or are they correct?  It may well be that the arrangement only covers my Health Benefits in France and I can accept this but I hate to pay something if I need not.

Second:  I have a private pension from the UK of just under 7000 euros per month (it varies slightly with exchange rates).  It is a private pension and I am paying income tax on it here.  Again the same question applies. I do understand that normally an early private pension may be taxed... but should it be so when that pension is given by virue of Ill Health?

You opinions and advice would be welcome. 

 

Many thanks

Brillow

 

 

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

Brillow, I'm in a similar position to you but somewhat older.

The E121 and social payments thing is wrong, you should not have to pay contributions in France as they are still being paid for you in the UK whilst you are in receipt of IB.

The second question is I'm afraid not good news.  You pay tax on your world wide income here in France and that includes all pensions unless they must be paid in the UK as part of a non-transferable government pension scheme.  Your ill-health means nothing where taxation is concerned, it's income and all of us who have been retired early on health grounds have to pay tax on the income somewhere.

The good thing is that you may pay less in France!

[Sunday Driver]

Everyone is liable to social contributions - except for those with foreign salaries and pensions where their healthcare subscriptions are not 'a la charge' of the French state healthcare system.  In your case, you have a form E121, so you are exempt from social contributions on your pension.  However, the pension is subject to income tax, regardless of why it was awarded.  At 7,000€ per month, you will most certainly pay tax.... 

If you have any unearned income, eg savings interest, then this is not covered by the E121 arrangements and you pay social contributions on that income.

 

[brillow12]

Thank you Tony,

 

That is about what I thought.  I shall talk again to the Social Services here.  I don't mind paying tax on the pension but the Social Security is paid in the Uk and I do have issues with paying twice.

By the way (this is to everyone and maybe you already know)  The French have very kindly setup an English speaking help line for Social Security issues.  Tel 0820 904 212.  They are very helpful indeed.

Brillow

[cooperlola]

This has been said before, but it's worthy of note again.  The contributions sociales are a TAX which contribute towards paying off the french national debt - they are not social security payments such as you still pay in the UK (NI contributions).

[lizzy h]

 hi there , you say you recieve 7000 euros a month pension ,is that correct, you must have had a good job to recieve approx 4500 pounds a month pension if I had that much money I wouldn't be worrying about  coppers in social charges, most people would class themselves a wealthy having that much to live on here!

[Ron Avery]

Brillow read also what Sunday Driver posted. 

You are not comparing like with like.  If you pay NI in the UK that is your choice and it contributes towards getting your UK OAP, but as you live in France, I presume, you have to pay your way here as well.  With an E121 you are exempt from the measly 0.5% sociale charge on your pension whilst you receive IB and are covered by an E121 but not from income tax or contributions sociale that are payable on unearned income such as interest on savings which as SD has already posted must be declared here whether you pay tax in the UK on this or not. 

If you want to sort out paying any tax you must go to the tax office not the "social security" office.

[Chancer]

[quote user="lizzy h"] hi there , you say you recieve 7000 euros a month pension ,is that correct, you must have had a good job to recieve approx 4500 pounds a month pension if I had that much money I wouldn't be worrying about  coppers in social charges, most people would class themselves a wealthy having that much to live on here!

[/quote]

Especially having only contributed until (at the latest) the age of 42!

I thought that I had been in well paid employement prior to striking out on my own, 18 years later I only know a couple of French people who earn the equivalant (that is on equal terms, not allowing for inflation). When I ran my own business I paid NIC effectively twice, employers and employees NIC and also contributed as much as I could afford to 2 private pension plans.

After deciding to leave the rat race at the age of 45, like most others I did not have the option to take my pension(s) early, in fact at that time they were worth less than 1/2 of what I had paid in, even after some recovery the projected return at my proper retirement age would barely buy me a coffee and croissant each day! To acheive the sort of (early) return  that you have I would have had to work and contribute for several centuries!

I have been living solely on my own savings and will continue to do so until the building work (rental apartments) that I am doing alone will hopefully bring in a modest income for the future.

I dont say this to have a pop at you, it's just that I am very, very jealous.

If (only!) I were in your position I woud be happy to lose even 90% of your net income in charges/taxes, especially as you are still having contributions paid towards your final old age pension and are fortunate enough to have no concerns over healthcare.

That said good luck to you, I hope that your disability does not prevent you from enjoying your retirement here.

Were you by any chance in the Police force or Fire service?

[AnOther]

More to the point, is your old job still open...............................[6]

[Newcomer]

You must also take into account that your E121  which you receive with Incapacity Benefit is continually under review and if you situation healthwise changes you will no longer be entitled to it. 

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="J.R."]

I dont say this to have a pop at you, it's just that I am very, very jealous.

[/quote]

Oh J.R.

How can you say that!

I wouldn't swap my health for all the tea in china and certainly not for a pension.

I wouldn't want to be 42 years old and an invalid, thank goodness this poor man has at least got no money worries (well not real ones anyway)

Jackie

[AnOther]

Nah, far too small for that..................[:D]

[brillow12]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Brillow read also what Sunday Driver posted. 

You are not comparing like with like.  If you pay NI in the UK that is your choice and it contributes towards getting your UK OAP, but as you live in France, I presume, you have to pay your way here as well.  With an E121 you are exempt from the measly 0.5% sociale charge on your pension whilst you receive IB and are covered by an E121 but not from income tax or contributions sociale that are payable on unearned income such as interest on savings which as SD has already posted must be declared here whether you pay tax in the UK on this or not. 

If you want to sort out paying any tax you must go to the tax office not the "social security" office.

[/quote]

 

Sorry but my post was long and you may have missed the point.

I do not pay NI in the UK.  Social Servies pay it for me by virtue of the fact that I am on Incapacity Benefit.  I do not get any cash, just the NI paid because I have a private pension.  I supposed I would therefore be treated like an OAP in France who is having all NI paid.

Not to worry.  SS in France have now confirmed they should not have been charging me and they are returning the money. Thanks to you for your help.

Brillow

[brillow12]

Hi JR, thank you for your good wishes.  I must say I feel under attack here.  by many people.

""Especially having only contributed until (at the latest) the age of 42!""

I was in neither Police or Fire Service.  I worked for a Utility.  They have a policy where they give 40 year pension if youserved over 9 years and you retire in ill health.

 

Brillow

[brillow12]

[quote user="Chipie"][quote user="J.R."]

I dont say this to have a pop at you, it's just that I am very, very jealous.

[/quote]

Oh J.R.

How can you say that!

I wouldn't swap my health for all the tea in china and certainly not for a pension.

I wouldn't want to be 42 years old and an invalid, thank goodness this poor man has at least got no money worries (well not real ones anyway)

Jackie

[/quote]

 

Thank you Jackie, that is very kind of you to say.   I should mention though that I have an incapacity which is an illness...  I tend not to think of myself as an InValid.  That word tends not to be used....

TO ALL OTHERS WHO ARE BEING SO UNKIND AND RUDE:

I understand many of you will harbour dislike for another who does well financially and that is fine, it is to be expected for certain types of people..  I respectfully request that whilst posting here on this topic you refrain from showing this vitriole as it is innapropriate and hurtful, your unkind and hurtful comment reveal more about you than about me.

Brillow.

[AnOther]

It would be a shame to see you leave brillow.

My own comments were made in good humour and not meant to give any offence and I apologise unresevedly it they did.

I think if you post comments like "€7000/month pension" which is maybe up to 10x what many have worked a whole life for, it's completely inevitable that you will get varied responses.

My personal view is that I find such excess immoral, especially from a utility company, but at the same time it's the way things work and good for you having worked your way into such circumstances, I doubt there are many who would not do likewise given the opportunity. Dam.n sure I would !

Why not wipe the slate and start over ? 

Whatever, I wish you good luck for the future.

[Cat]

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[Cat]

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[Tony F Dordogne]

Brillow12, whether you  get the amount of money that you say you do or not, you certainly don't understand the system which helps fund your life here.

Social Services most certainly don't pay your NI contributions in the UK.  What was called Social Security in the dim past may have done so but they changed their name to the Department of Work and Pensions several years ago and it is that government department that pays your NI, effectively to itself.

And it was you that first used the word invalid.

[brillow12]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Brillow12, whether you  get the amount of money that you say you do or not, you certainly don't understand the system which helps fund your life here.

Social Services most certainly don't pay your NI contributions in the UK.  What was called Social Security in the dim past may have done so but they changed their name to the Department of Work and Pensions several years ago and it is that government department that pays your NI, effectively to itself.

And it was you that first used the word invalid.

[/quote]

You are quite right, I do seem to have misnamed some of the derpatments involved.  Using their old titles instead of the new.  My apologies to anyone who was mislead due to this error and many thanks for taking the time to point it out.  In my defence with the word 'invalid';  I used it in insofar as it aligned with the terminology of my pension company, past employer and social services... It is not a term I would use to define myself in normal circumstances, at least not as a personal definition, which is what I objected to.  I have tried to figure what you point was and can only presume it was to corect me on the misnaming of the departments and the initial use of the word mentioned...  Forgive me if I have misconstued your motives.

Brillow is back!   For now.  How the heck are you all you lovely wobbly people?

Sorry for the delay in responding but someone knocked me off my motorbike (on that bridge entering Caen not a week after me posting on the dangers of bikes!!!) and I had been recovering and had forgotten all about you lot till I needed to check some info about TV Licences.... [:P] 

[cooperlola]

Good to see you back, even though you do sound as if you got a bit battered in the meantime!  Hope you're OK now (dangerous things these motos.)  Did you get your initial problem sorted in the end?

[brillow12]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Good to see you back, even though you do sound as if you got a bit battered in the meantime!  Hope you're OK now (dangerous things these motos.)  Did you get your initial problem sorted in the end?[/quote]

 

Yes Thanks,  Basically I do have to pay the contributions (I call them Social Contributions but await the onslaught of benign and pointless corrections ...  not meaning anyone in particleear). [:)]

The accident was nasty but I recovered fully some time ago... Risk one takes when riding a bike...  It was a foul day with poor visibility so I should realy have jumped off and waited..  Do you know the big bridge just south of Caen...  Nightmare at the best ot times (and the worst of tymes..) I simply forgot about this syte till I kneeded some info on 'an udder ting'.[:D]

OK best off...

Brillow... not always abrasive

PS

Plenty in there for the pedants to get to work at.... Have fun... [:P]