Difficult situation

[Mrs Trellis]

An elderly friend is at her wits' end. Her partner has been in hospital for some time with various problems including early stages of dementia. The hospital is pressuring her to get him out but they no funds to pay for a nursing home. She is not in good health and would struggle to care for him.

Their modest house is in joint names. The authorities want to contact his children in UK for contributions but they have no money and are estranged from him.

Bills are piling up. My friend is wondering if she'd be better off trying to get him back to UK but what would happen then? Has anyone faced similar problems?

[Hereford]

A very difficult situation and we feel for the lady.  One important question: have they been in France (and in the "system") for at least five years?

Once one has been here 5 years (and totally in the system) then various rights to benefits kick in.  The lady should be able to claim APA for her partner, either for help at home or if he really needs a Nursing Home then APA for that. This can, if they are not well off, cover all care costs but not of course "board and lodging".

Around here places in Maisons de retraite have to be waited for, there are long waiting lists!  But: in this sort of case the Social Worker at the hospital will have access to available beds in the area.  My mother had been on waiting lists for months and months but when an emergency arose we were able to get her a bed within a week.

We have been told that one "has an absolute right" to be in a MdR if care is needed and, if there is no money available, the Department (where they live) can pick up the bill.  However: Yes it is right that children will be asked to complete an income statement when aid is requested as will the the person needing the care and his lady. Contributions are means tested.  Being estranged from a parent does not affect this.  The claim for aid will be rejected if the children do not complete the forms required, leaving the only way of sorting it out to go to Court.  If the Court do not get income details the Judge will decide a figure for a contribution, this can be enforced across Europe and there is no appeal against the amount if decided by a judge.

All the above I can attest to from personal experience over the last two years.

I have no idea what happens if one tries to go back to the UK, I am glad that we did not do that as the care my mother has here cannot be

faulted.

best wishes, do post again  if you have any more questions. I don't understand the comment about  bills are mounting up. What bills?

Mrs H

[Sprogster]

I would not discount the option of returning to the UK as a large part of

the equation must be how integrated is your friend into French life. If she

does not speak the language and finds herself isolated and struggling, where

would she prefer to be under the circumstances. If she has been in France a

relatively short period of time and would prefer to be back in the UK, where

she might get more support from friends and family then that might be the

answer.

Also although her partner is estranged from his child that is probably

another factor, as notwithstanding if it was me, I would not want to burden my

children with my nursing costs,  if they

were struggling financially themselves.

[Mrs Trellis]

Thanks for a very helpful response. The couple have been in France a good few years. The hospital people, presumably social workers, have been unhelpful and sometimes hostile, for example saying it's her fault her partner is not eating. I think for the moment my friend would be better to stay in France. Selling the house could take a long time anyway.

It is hard for the patient as he is of course surrounded by French people and is confused. Not sure how good his French was, but anyway people with dementia seem to lose their second language.

[NormanH]

"I would not want to burden my

children with my nursing costs,  if they

were struggling financially themselves."

While understanding your sentiment the situation in France is not the same as in the UK. Here children are legally responsible for their parents (including debts) so these costs will be reclaimed from them if the State has to pay.

[Mrs Trellis]

Her French is pretty good and she probably has more support from friends here than she'd have in UK.

I

[PaulT]

Obviously, a sad and worrying case.

I hope no one is offended, and I note that she would prefer to stay in France, but the suggestion of returning to the UK did jar a little. They have been in France paying taxes to the French authorities. Returning to the UK would mean that they would be economic migrants effectively, with the UK taxpayer picking up the bill.

[Hereford]

Mrs Trellis

I am so shocked to hear that the hospital staff have been so unhelpful, we found quite the opposite.

I don't know where you are in France but look in your telephone book (or internet!!) and see if you have a "CLIC" office somewhere near by.

They are an organisation that help people with advice and forms for benefits to cover care at home or in a M de R.

Your Department website should have links to services for "Personnes Agées".

Good luck

Mrs H

[Sprogster]

Interesting comment that people with dementia lose

their second language capability earlier than their first language, as if that

is the case it is a consideration  as to

whether or not one would want to spend ones declining years in a foreign nursing

home if communication became a problem much sooner, as compared to being in a

nursing home that could speak your first language.

 

As for the economic migrant point, it can work both

ways, as if you are dealing with a pensioner for example who moves to France only

after retirement and lives on a relatively small pension income and pays

minimal or no French tax and cotisations on their UK pension, is it fair for

the French State to pick up the cost of providing nursing home and ancillary

care for elderly expats, or should it be the UK where the retiree has paid a

lifetime of tax and national insurance contributions, as would be the case for

medical costs under the S1 agreement. This I gather is something several of the

larger EU countries are currently looking at a result of which it is likely

tighter rules for inactifs will be introduced restricting access to benefits in

their adopted country of retirement.

 

The liability of non-French children to pay for

their retired parents nursing home costs in France is contentious, especially

where the children are estranged and or there has been an abusive parental

relationship. Also I am sure there have been circumstances where this has led

to adult children in the UK putting undue pressure on retired expat parents in

France to come back to the UK when nursing home care is required.

[Hereford]

Sprogster:  Any bills for a M de R picked up by the French state are potentially repayable, for example when a house is sold or on death and this applies to French and ex-pats.  As far as children contributing we were told that "an abusive" situation, if it can be proved, allows for no contribution.

Mrs H

[Sprogster]

I know of

a lady in the UK who is in the situation of having to contribute towards her

parents nursing care in France, and even though she is on a low wage and cannot

really afford it, she does not complain and dutifully coughs up. But I do think

it is unfair as it is adversely impacting her ability to save for her

retirement and as her children also live in the UK she won’t have any recourse

to them for her nursing home costs in the future!

 

One would

like to think that foreign pensioners who can afford to retire to France budget

for the eventual cost of nursing home care in that country, so as not to become

an undue burden on their children or the French State, but I fear many if not

most don’t and are unaware of the liability trap waiting for their children.

 

 

[idun]

That is the thing about France, unless one can sneakily by pass the law, then one's blood line gets their inheritance, BUT, by the same token, there is family responsibility too for one's children to help support their parents in their old age, if necessary.

None of this is a 'secret' and it was always possible to find this stuff out and so easy now. OR is it one of those things that say the Notaire wouldn't mention as they wouldn't know that you didn't know? Stiil the information is out there.

Basically, that is the way it is and now they have changed the inheritance rules, which are fairer than they ever were, I think it isn't bad now.

One of the reasons we left France and had always planned on leaving France, was the concern that if we lost our marbles, we may forget things like 'french'. And we wanted to be properly installed in England before we got to be really old. I had heard that losing a language was a possiblity and I simply don't fancy that. I suppose the difference between us and most posters is that a big lump of the pension will always come from France and so, we will always have dealings with France and I suppose our bilingual sons will have to deal with the pensions if we can't.

[YCCMB]

These factors seem to be among the many that people in their 40's and 50's don't really consider, along with the potential for the exchange rate to vary, the possibility that the value of their property might decrease, and the chances that tending several hectares of garden will become more difficult with age.

In the halcyon days of mass British migration to France by the early-retired, some of the above were mooted by the few and poo-pooed by the many. Let's face it, the vast majority don't start considering their own mortality and its effect on them and their families until it's staring them in the face, and unfortunately that's usually when it's too late.

[Mrs Trellis]

Interesting discussion! And thanks for the practical advice.

A friend with Alzheimer's had been a fluent French speaker but forgot it. Memory seems to roll back so you forget the more recent input first. My Mum at one point knew her grandchildren but forgot the names of their children.

'They would be economic migrants effectively, with the UK taxpayer picking up the bill'. As they paid UK tax all their working lives and little in France on a small retirement income, I'm not sure that is fair comment. The UK health service would be free, again after many years of paying NI.

I am sometimes surprised at Brits with little French coming over in their 70s with no thought of what will happen when one dies or becomes disabled, if they can no longer drive, etc. We decided not to sell up and splurge all on a large French property, so downsized to a small UK house and live happily in a 2 bed village house in France. I have in the back of my mind that at some point decisions will have to be made - assuming we don't both get dementia. Who knows what the future holds? So people can't be blamed for living for today and enjoying their life in France.

[mint]

[quote user="Mrs Trellis"]

 I am sometimes surprised at Brits with little French coming over in their 70s with no thought of what will happen when one dies or becomes disabled, if they can no longer drive, etc.

 [/quote]

Everyone's different and it annoys me when people who should know better make these sorts of sweeping statements.

The truth is we do not know anyone else's circumstances, state of mind, health, etc.  Bad enough when businesses such as insurance companies and car hire bods make assumptions.

Try getting holiday insurance, hiring a car, etc. when you are over 70 and you'd know what I mean.

So.............OH came when he was 76, yes, you heard right, 76, and he can drive better and knows more French than people near us who have been here over 20 years, since they were in their early 40s.

Of course, I might be tempting providence (unsympathetic person, Providence) and we might both be gaga soon enough and unable to communicate, having forgotten all our French and being even more pitiably inept than we probably are already.

I think we have earned the right not to be lectured as though we have suddenly become irresponsible and somehow unable to direct our own lives and affairs.

[Quillan]

[quote user="PaulT"]Obviously, a sad and worrying case. I hope no one is offended, and I note that she would prefer to stay in France, but the suggestion of returning to the UK did jar a little. They have been in France paying taxes to the French authorities. Returning to the UK would mean that they would be economic migrants effectively, with the UK taxpayer picking up the bill.[/quote]

Surely if the person is of retirement age or older then the UK is paying anyway through the S1 form?

[PaulT]

Q not from what was originally stated, i.e. either pay from their house or the husbands estranged children resident in the UK paying - not via S1.

[idun]

If they are paying tax to the french, then they would start paying tax in the UK too? In fact they must, because the french tax system is quite generous with it's allowances.

I do think that generalising is OK because in spite of exceptional cases, the odds against 'us' as human beings remaining in good health etc diminish with each passing year and on one of those years we die. And sweet17 if anyone asked my advice saying to me that they fancied moving to France at 76 I would as a generalisation suggest that they did not.

We have generalisations made all of our lives, so why is old age different? I don't think it is. And the insurers, well my Dad was in competitions until fairly recently running all over the world, it used to get right up his nose to be asked to pay huge premiums as an over 80 year old, but I don't blame the insurance companies.

[Quillan]

Interesting Paul. I like many assume because it is so often stated on the forum (and other forums) that once you get a state pension you receive an S1 (which you hand over to Cpam) which means your healthcare is paid for (in part, you still need a mutual) in France. I have no idea how this actually works, is it a fixed sum (per person) that the UK gives France every year or are they paid on individual cost for each medical need? I also read that Ed Balls wants to integrate the NHS and social services which he will do if Labour win at the next election. I am wondering if this would effect a situation like this as basically the OP's friend is looking more at social costs than healthcare costs (if you use the UK as an example of how things work). As I said I don't really understand how it all works from the financial point of view between two EU countries re the S1 and what is actually covered by the S1 like convalescent homes, respite care etc although I suspect respite care is more a social requirment than medical.

[Mrs Trellis]

"I think we have earned the right not to be lectured as though we have suddenly become irresponsible and somehow unable to direct our own lives and affairs."

I didn't intend to 'lecture' and as I don't know you it is obviously not addressed to you in particular. I would say 'expressing an opinion' or 'making a comment' on the forum.. I am probably over-cautious and tend to worry about 'what if....' while others are different.

None of us knows what may happen as we get older and many do not need care. As I said "people can't be blamed for living for today and enjoying their life in France"

[AnOther]

[quote user="Quillan"]I have no idea how this actually works, is it a fixed sum (per person) that the UK gives France every year or are they paid on individual cost for each medical need?[/quote]It used to be the former but is now the latter, one of the major changes which came in in May 2012.

[Hereford]

S1 does not cover any expenses for a Maison de Retraite, only health care as for all the rest of us.  If it did I would not have had such a hassle with my mother (18 months and still not finally sorted out who pays how much) and neither would the OP's friend.

[idun]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Quillan"]I have no idea how this actually works, is it a fixed sum (per person) that the UK gives France every year or are they paid on individual cost for each medical need?[/quote]It used to be the former but is now the latter, one of the major changes which came in in May 2012.

[/quote]

Recently, I spoke to the people who deal with the S1's and they said that the french want paying for individual costs and the UK have a forfait system.  I had asked as it was to do with us.

[Quillan]

Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder if Labour wins the next election and Balls does combine health and social care if the S1 will cover both, probably not but it poses an interesting question.

[Hereford]

I very much doubt the Health Service would ever pay the board and lodging bit of the MdR charge! That is the bit that the children etc have to contribute to. The Care bit is not a problem (APA).