Elderly parent living in france .. needs to come back to te uk

[sj1rich]

Hi,

I'm not sure I'm in the right area but I need some help.

My English father has lived in France for 20+ years but we now have a problem. He has had a stroke and also suffers from heart failure and dementia (he is 85). He is in hospital and we have been told he can no longer return to his home. The homes that social services recommended to us are all full and it seems our only option is to bring him back to the UK. First to be closer to us and secondly to get the care he needs in a home/nursing home.

I really don't know how to go about it. Social services here say he needs to be in the uk to be assessed but he needs to go directly into a care home or hospital. Does anyone here have any experiences that they can share?

He does have a house that will be put on the market near Montpellier to pay towards he fees but how do we get as such from A to B?

Thank you in advance

Sandra

[lindal1000]

It's a difficult situation. If he is well enough to travel you could see if you find a care agency that would be able to provide an escort for him. Otherwise the only option will be ambulance, which will be expensive. Once he returns to the UK he will need a permanent address before he can be assessed and entitled to NHS care, and the only way I can see is to either find him a private nursing home, although they are unlikely to want to take him without seeing him, or he will have to stay with a family member. You could just try turning up in A&E with him, but I'm pretty sure all they would do is discharge him to your care. What about paying for full time carers for him in his own home? It may work out cheaper.

Sorry can't offer anything more positive.

[sj1rich]

The hospital said he cannot go home and social services say all the homes are full so he would have to go back home? Is there no duty of care in France?

My dad would rather stay in France as that is where my mum is buried.

But what other solutions do we have?

[lindal1000]

What reasons are they giving for him not being able to go home? If it is because he is needing active medical treatment, then yes, I would guess that the hospital does have a duty to keep him in. If it is because he needs help with daily living and can't manage then I don't think they do..and certainly in France the financing of this sort of care is seen as the responsibility of the immediate family. I would be asking them if the care they think he needs could be provided by full time carers in the home until a place becomes available in one of the social care homes. Most care homes run with a waiting list. It a very difficult position to be in. Is there a social worker at the hospital where he is that you could talk it through with. I worked as an Occupational Therapist for years in UK and there are very few conditions that can't be managed at home with care going in.. the determining factors are usually whether the home can be adapted or is suitable for someone who is severely disabled.

[Laurier]

Am very interested in seeing what options are suggested or are available. It's the sort of situation that we all could find ourselves in but probably won't have thought about until it happens.

Bon courage. Hope you find a satisfactory solution.

Regards

Laurier

[Patf]

Sandra - this sounds like a real headache, and as Laurier wrote, many of us could be placed in that situation.

Will you be going over to his house? If so all I can suggest is that you go to the Mairie and ask for an appointment to see the local Assistante Sociale (I think that's what they're called) who could advise.

Someone on here called Val2 will hopefully be able to add to this - she's more knowledgeable than me.

We were in the local town last week and passed the new maison de retraite and I said to Eddie we should put our names down now, though if one of us died I think the other would go back to the UK asap.

[sj1rich]

Thank you all for your replies.... living at home with full time carers would be difficult to manage due to the dementia which seems to have amplified his aggressive nature. Before his stroke he kicked one of his carers because he didn't like her!. He was on APA level 2 before the stroke. with the nurse coming twice a day and the kine twice a week.

but once we find some way through this I will let you know of the outcome. But if anyone has anymore input it would be much appreciated.

[idun]

If I were you I would call this number and have a chat, it is the Age UK helpline, with fully trained advisers rather than the normal general line and see what they say. I admit that it is very hard to get these people but worth it, so keep on trying.

I would also ask them about your responsibility with regards to your father, not about morals, but the law.

AGE UK ADVICE LINE 08009175303

I mention legal responsibility as it is the luck of the draw as far as I can see with social services. Ours was good when my mother was ill, but now, well, I have no time for anyone I have met so far and I simply do not trust them.... and yet in another part of the country, my centenaire Aunt's are great, my cousin is very happy.

Also you should get in touch with the assisante sociale via the Mairie where your Dad lives.

[lindal1000]

Hmm..home does sound tricky. Can he get in and out of a chair and walk? I do feel for you.. unfortunately if there are no spaces in the local care homes then it's difficult to see why the options might be at this point, unless maybe see if there are any homes with spaces a bit further away? The hospital could decide to keep him in hospital until a place comes up in a local nursing home but acute hospitals are not safe places for older people with dementia and he may well be as much of a risk there of falling or getting an infection there than he would be at home.

Good idea to talk with AgeUK who my be able to clarify the situation with regard to his entitlements should he come back to the UK, and maybe they will have some ideas re how to get him there.

[Hereford]

Speak to the Social Worker at the hospital (in France!).  We had a similar problem when my Dad had a heart attack and could no longer care for my mother. She had had helpers and was on APA 2. The local hospital admitted her whilst we looked for a Home to take her as an emergency.  Dad was of course in hospital too...The SW gave us a list of  places where there was a bed free. Luckily we found a place just 25km from their own home. Actually in the next department. The hospital kept Mum until bed was confirmed - around 10 days.

Paperwork is considerable and Social Help will be available if your Dad cannot pay all the fees (either ever or until house is sold). In France the family is expected to contribute, on a income based scheme and this applies even if the "family" are in the UK. If any immediate family member refuses to complete income forms the help will be refused.  The aide needs to be applied for asap once your Dad is in a Home. The SWs are a wonderful help but you may need to be in France to deal with it.  The APA normally transfers easily.

You can email me via this site if you need any help with this - I have "been there and got more than one t-shirt" if you get my meaning!

First stop though is definitely the hospital social worker.

Mrs H.

[NormanH]

Is there no duty of care in France?

I think as Hereford has said that the duty of care falls upon the family, even the husbands and wives of the children

http://www.dossierfamilial.com/famille/parents-enfants/l-obligation-alimentaire-envers-ses-ascendants,1359

[Cendrillon]

Sandra I have sent you a PM

[Hereford]

Travelling back from Germany yesterday so not online.

Yes indeed the children/family of any old person in France have a legal responsibility for them (remember the fuss when so many old dears died in the heatwave a few years ago).  The fact that said children are not in France does not change this.

Hence my comments on Aide being rejected unless all the direct descendants complete a form detailing their income.  I will not go into details but I have direct experience of what happens when one refuses.    Husbands and wives of said children too are included.

I understood that the gentleman concerned in the OP's question wanted to stay in France so made no comment on getting him to the UK.  In the UK he would need an EMI home (he has dementia) whereas here, at least where my mother is, the Home has "all sorts" which seems better. Makes for a better atmosphere in the Home.  My mother's one is an EHPAD home so effectively public. I don't think there are many private homes outside of big cities. Costs are far lower than in the UK. I saw lots of Homes in the UK (as an accountant did the accounts for several) and none of them were as good as the one my mother is in and it is almost half the cost of the private one my M-in-L was in and I thought that one not terribly good.

If the OP sees the hospital social worker they will help. The hospital will want the gentleman moved to suitable care.

One comment I would make is that people say "the Council/govt. will pay in the UK". This is a fallacy for most people. Many Homes will not take patients for the Govt. money and who has to find the difference? - the family of course - so not all that different from France. If there is no family then the Homes that take people for the tiny amount the Govt. pays are often (of course not always) awful - I have been in some.

[linfr]

We had a similar situation earlier this year. We moved here 21 years ago and my Mum came with us - I'm an only child and she would have been totally on her own.  Mum was 70 when we moved here and I couldn't find a company that would take Mum on for a top-up health insurance at that age.  This was of course before the age of the internet!  I believe that they do exist now but would be far too expensive.  Not to worry said Mum, I'll put money by each month but once the exchange rates were no longer in our favour this was not an option. As Mum got older we realised that we were all heading for trouble.  This coincided with the arrival of grandchilden so we decided that we would all move back to the UK.  Mum was diagnosed with osteoporosis, arthritis and other minor problems and became quite fragile and we realised that we would have to get her to the UK before we moved, while she could still travel.  I had many conversations with Durham Council as we intend to move up there, and all  concluded with the fact that Mum would have to be in the country before an assessment could be done.  My son offered to put us up while arrangements for the assessment were made so we all set off in March and took two days to reach County Durham.  Mum coped really well, luckily she was always up for an adventure!  As soon as we got to my son's house I phoned the social worker and she came round the next day.  She was extremely nice and sympathetic and seeing the trouble we had getting Mum upstairs in my son's town house, she rushed through her assessment and we got permission to find a care home in two days.  The second one we looked round was superb and they had spaces.  Mum was in within a week of our arrival and, apart from missing us terribly, she is content.  My son and family visit often and take her out. 

We are still trying to sell our house but as we all know, the market is awful at the moment.

So, it can be done but I think we were extremely lucky with the social worker we were assigned, the attitude of Durham Council and the home that we found.  We count our blessings every day that we got Mum somewhere safe and secure, I don't think she would travel so well now!

I do hope that you can find an answer to your problems too.