A tangental thought on Receiving "Sky" that might interest techies and legal minds.

[JohnM]

You might ask what I'm "on" at the end of this! They are idle thoughts so please post facts / other idle thoughts in the same vein.

I don't have Sky's terms and conditions so may have got the wrong end of the stick.

I know that Sky only have copyrights for the UK which is why they have to try to restrict who can watch their programmes. But I am not sure that it can be illegal to recieve the signals. I know I'm being pedantic, but the signals are "recieved" by every structure that they hit and additionally, there must be  people who point dishes at the "Sky" sats for legitimate reasons who are definitely recieving strong signals, but they don't tune in to them. So, it might be an offence to tune and decode the signals, but isn't that different from recieving the signals? If it went to court, wouldn't a good lawyer run rings round anyone trying to claim that it's illegal to "recieve" signals.

Surely, the situation is that Sky are in breach of contract with their programme makers if they "allow" people to use their equipment outside of the UK. Likewise, if an individual signs an agreement with Sky saying that they will not use the equipment outside the UK, then they are in breach of that contract. But is it actually a "criminal" offence to use the kit?

If this has also been discussed to death then please point me at the thread because I've missed it. (It will be very embarrassing if I find that I've contributed to a previous thread - go easy on me)

 

[Nick Trollope]

ere we go...........

As I understand it, under the 1949 Wireless Telegraphy act (and various updated acts) (Telepgraphy!!) it is an offence to listen to (or presumably watch/decode or whatever) any broadcast of which you are not the intended recipient. Furthermore, if you do listen to a broadcast illegally, you commit a further offence by passing on any information so discovered. Ha!

I doubt if the UK courts would consider a WTA offence for watching Sky in France. But, there is a criminal act of copyright infringement and that would probably stick...

I have huge arguments with the Administrators of the AI forum, who will not countenance discussion of Sky on their website ("having taken legal advice"). ********.

BTW, IANAL.

 

[Hagar]

John wrote -

 "but the signals are "recieved" by every structure that they hit and additionally, there must be  people who point dishes at the "Sky" sats for legitimate reasons who are definitely recieving strong signals, but they don't tune in to them. So, it might be an offence to tune and decode the signals, but isn't that different from recieving the signals?"

I would argue that , technically speaking, the signal has not been "received" until it has been decoded.

See discussion on previous thread re TV Licenses.

http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=290&MessageID=170156&TopicPage=3

rgds

Hagar

[JohnM]

Nick

That's interesting. I thought that you were allowed to listen to anything, but not allowed to use the information you might gain. I.e. you may listen to police bands but if you then use the information to avoid capture after a bank raid then you've committed an offence. (Not that I'm saying that you have been involved in Bank Raids... it was a generic use of "you"  ).

That's a good point that the WTA will not be valid in France, does anyone know if the french have a similar law? But, unless I "copy" the programme in France, am "I" infringing copyright? I've seen books that say "not for sale outside the USA", but that doesn't make it illegal for me to read it wherever I like.

Hagar

I probably should have said, it was that thread which set me off on this line of thought. I posted it as a separate topic because I wasn't actually answering the specific questions and thought the discussion might get too deep / abstract, to be of use to anyone. A good point that the signal isn't recieved until it's been decoded. I can try to "give" you something to my hearts content, but it isn't "recieved" until you have taken an action. So, I guess it is all down to whether the French have an equivalent rule in their equivalent to the WTA.

Sky

By the way, if anyone from Sky is reading this, there is no need to panic, I've got a contract with Sky (for the minimum fee)  but I don't take the card and box to France so that I can watch Sky 1... I don't watch it in the UK either because it's ***p. (As it happens, I'm contemplating Freeview because I'd get better free programmes). I just find the subject interesting!

 

[BJSLIV]

All the Sky services to which you are referring encrypted before transmission. The only method to receive them is by using technology which is owned by Skywhich decrypts the signal. Until dercrypted they are meaningless bits of enrgy floating in the air.

The only legit way of getting hold of the decryption is by signing a contract with BSKYB, in either Sky or Freesat guise. Their contracts specify that the technology , ie the card, must only be used in the UK. Anyone taking the card out of the country is breaching the contact, which allows BSKYB to block provision of service.

Anyone buying a secondhand card, is already off the straight and narrow, because the card remains the property of BSKYB and cannot legally be resold.

I would assume that Rupert Murdoch has far better legal advice and the money to buy even more, than any latter day David armed with a sling and stone.

 

[Mpprh]

hi

just to think a little sideways .................

Doesn't the EU concept suggest that ultimately, the idea of copyright in UK will become "copyright throughout member states" ?. And any country can listen / watch anything they can receive.

Already (and for the past 20 years !) BBC programmes are picked up on coastal borders and cabled into Belgium & Holland.

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

[Quillan]

From what I can understand, and it makes sense to me, there are two parts to this.

The first part is to do with the encrypted Sky transmitions i.e. Sky One etc and the card which as it states in your contract is owned by Sky and cannot be used outside the UK. If you take the card outside the UK and use it there is a civil case to answer for breach of contract. On top of this you are receiving signals only intended for the UK so the Telegraphy part also kicks in which is a criminal offence.

If you don't have any card (paid for or otherwise) and are receiving BBC1 etc then you are only breaching the Telegraphy act.

The actual box it's self is emotive because you can buy them anywhere and it's not illegal to own one.

On a moral note I can't really see it makes a difference to Sky if you pay for your card as they are getting the money to pay for copy right, performing arts rights or whatever although my guess is they would like to 'loosen the reigns' a little but are tied by the Telegraphy act and fear being 'done' for 'aiding and abetting'.

[JohnM]

That makes sense. I agree that if I were Sky, privately, I wouldn't care where people were as long as they paid me, but publicly I would "make the right the noises" to stop people watching from foreign climes.

For me, the bit on which this all hinges is, under French Law, is it illegal for people to recieve / decode and watch english transmissions? If it is, then that applies to coastal terrestrial transmissions as well.

Off on another tangent, I work within a local radio station and we often get reception reports from DXers (Folk who love listening to distant stations to see what they can pick up) in various parts of Europe. They ask for a QSL card (a confirmation of the contact) - If it is Illegal for them to listen, then by sending an acknowledgement back to them, I guess we are encouraging them to break the law! Aiding and abetting is illegal isn't it . With that sort on anomaly a good lawyer would have a field day if the Broadcasters tried to sue anyone for watching illegally!

 

[Quillan]

You might find (I don't actually have a clue how) that the French have a simular law about receiving French programs outside the country but I don't think they can technically stop you from receiving stuff from outside France.

I take your point about receiving TV and radio if you live on the French coast opposite the UK but then the UK can hardly set up an invisable force field to stop the signals 'bleeding over' as it were. I guess you are on your honour to quickly skip over the frequency when tuning in your radio/TV.

I never thought about amature radio people but I thought they only contacted one another. Perhaps your radio station should seek clarification on this issue.

Of course there are other issues like the BBC aiming services at particular countries like the old USSR and China (just an example but I don't know how true this is) for political reasons, the telegraphy act would have been surely breached.

The other issue is internet access, you can access BBC radio live via the internet and you can view certain clips from the TV.

It is at the end of the day a total mess really. The only thing I do know is that if you let on to Sky (as a subscriber) that you are outside the UK they will de-activate your card but little else happens.

[JohnM]

"It is at the end of the day a total mess really".

You've summed it up beautifully!

 

 

[Ron Avery]

Why is it a mess?  It is only the Brits who are taking sky cards to France that are muddying the waters.  SKY broadcast to the UK, CANAL + broadcast to France

Isn't the issue that Sky are licensed by the UK Government and controlled by UK law in terms of taste and decency, (did I really write taste and Sky in the same sentence?) to broadcast in the UK and that CANAL  + have the rights to satellite broadcasts in France, so if you are receiving Sky broadcasts in France then you are not only in breach of your Sky contract, but also, because SKY have no right to broadcast in France you are also in breach of French law

[Mpprh]

Hi

Ron, can you tell us exactly which French law is being broken here ?

Thanks

 

Peter

 

[JohnM]

Ron,

Well.....

I'd say it is a mess because there is confusion betwixt what is criminal law, contract violation and copyright consideration. I'd say it is a mess because it appears that the many of us who listened to Radio Lux under the bedclothes (I was certainly supposed to be asleep), were breaking the law, but the precedent set was that the authorities don't care what you receive (except in war time). I'd say it is a mess because British authorities prosecute Pirate Stations, but not the listeners. I'd say it is a mess because it does seem to be against human rights to say one can't listen to ones mother tongue if it is available.

If it wasn't a mess I think there would have been only one reply on this thread saying "No, John, you are out of your tree, the legal situation in France is blah, blah, blah".

As for it just being the Brits who are muddying the waters, are you really suggesting that not one French, German, Belgian (or other) person living in the UK uses a satellite to watch TV in their native language???

As I read it back, the above reads as rather curt. It isn't meant that way, but I really can't see which emoticons to use to show that I am not in a strop.

 

[Boghound]

Good reply John...I know an Italian/German/Swede...who all have lived here for over 40 years and still watch their relevent countries Sat channels...I used to watch Canal+ Sweden/Norway plus their other channels with aid of a card and decoder...and bloody good they were to...What about the thousands, yes thousands that watch Sky in Spain...Sky couldn't really give a monkeys as long as you don't "rock the boat" and keep the payments up.

[Quillan]

I abree with John and Boggy. If you go to Leroy Merlin and buy a box and dish you can recieve loads of stuff from all over the world and it does not cost a bean. The legality of doing so may be quite different.

Theres loads of Belgians down here and they get Belgian TV, in some ways they are worse than the Brits for getting TV from home as most of their camper vans have a self seeking dish so when they turn up on the campsite they press a button and they are up and running.

I guess the legality side is probably on somebodies list in the good old Brussel's to get sorted one day.

[Dick Smith]

I doubt if anyone in Brussels (or any other government) cares overmuch - until a large company realises that it is providing for free what it would normally charge for, and thinks of some way of charging for it now, and then there will be representations to crack down, prosecute a few examples etc., just as has happened recently with downloaded music. I wouldn't put it past News International to get stroppy about it one day, not as providers of Sky, but as copyright holders of a huge movie library/TV back catalogue.

[Boghound]

Yes Dick but Sky will not be too bothered as long as they are getting the monthly fee of £41 to watch the movies..no matter where it is being picked up.

[BJSLIV]

Breach of copyright is a criminal offence, and there is a European directive which requires individual states to enforce copyright laws effectively.

If Sky knowingly allows someone to, for example, watch a film, for which it has bought the UK rights, but Canal Plus has the French rights if it does nothing to ensure that the copyright law is being respected then it is in breach of its commercial contract with the studio who made the film, but also involved in a criminal matter by breaching C+'s rights. Hence a breach of French law.

So much for the theory. As others have said, Sky are quite happy to take anybodys money, but if they become aware of whats going on, eg because of a French phone call, then they are obliged to act, simply to protect themselves. I assume that this is why they take occasional action to block cards, but don't really run any heavy weight enforcement regime.

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Ron, Well..... I'd say it is a mess because there is confusion betwixt what is criminal law, contract violation and copyright consideration. I'd say it is a mess because it appears that the many of ...[/quote]

Sorry John I thought you were talking about SKY subscription broadcasts in France, just how Pirate radio and Radio Luxembourg comes into it beats me, On that logic the whole world can be prosecuted for listening to the BBC World service.  There is no mess on the big picture, the legal situation is that the French government licences CANAL + to broadcast to France, it does not license SKY to broadcast to France and Vice versa.  Why not ask SKY why you cannot have a subscription in France for the definitive answer.

"As for it just being the Brits who are muddying the waters, are you really suggesting that not one French, German, Belgian (or other) person living in the UK uses a satellite to watch TV in their native language???"

  No I'm not, never mentioned Belgians, but this happens to be a living in France Forum and the problem of SKY being received in France would not arise if all the Brits pointed their dishes at the French satellite would it??

[Dick Smith]

Boggy - I was careful to say that Sky probably don't mind - but News International/20th Century Fox might if they feel that they are losing out - as in the music downloads fuss. It was quiet for a long time and then the music industry went right over the top to protect their interests, and the movie people are starting to do the same for peer to peer file sharing. If they think that they are losing out (ie if in France their licensees pay more than in the UK to show a particular movie and you watch it at 'UK prices') they will act. Or some of the others involved in the movie business. That's all.

[JohnM]

[quote]Sorry John I thought you were talking about SKY subscription broadcasts in France, just how Pirate radio and Radio Luxembourg comes into it beats me , On that logic the whole world can be prosecuted f...[/quote]

Ron,

I think we have established in earlier postings that anyone who uses a Sky card in a foreign country is in breach of contract as the card belongs to Sky and they say "don't do it". So that bit is not a mess. But I was not aware that it is illegal to be "in breach of contract", I thought it was / is a civil matter.

I think that the LEGAL position of listening to/ watching foreign transmissions is a mess.  People on here often say "It's illegal to watch Sky in France" but is there a French or European law that says you must not do so? If there is a French law, it will not say "Thou shalt not watch Sky because they don't have the French rights to show you the programmes" it will say "Thou shalt not listen to, or watch, transmissions which originate from foreign climes". That is why I made mention of other broadcasts. It seems that there is a law in England, the WTA, which forbids UK residents from listening to non UK originated broadcasts, that means that many millions of UK folk who listened to Lux or Pirate Radio, contravened the WTA,  but I don't recall any prosecutions. In fact, in order to clamp down on the off shore pirates, they brought in / amended the Marine Offences act. I think it was valid to make that analogy. As for the BBC World Service... well, Yes, IF there is a French law that says that we must not listen to foreign stations, then even though the UK foreign office wants you to listen in France, it would be illegal to do so. The number of IFs and BUTs I've had to put in this, reinforces my view that it's a mess!

I know you didn't mention Belgians or Germans, but you did say it is the Brits who are muddying the waters. I wished to highlight that it is not only the Brits who will find themselves in this situation of wanting to hear their mother tongue, so the muddying of the waters is not confined to Brits - it is only confined to Brits on this board because it is mainly Brits that contribute, I am sure similar debates are held by other nationalities. I do not believe that I was pettifogging by including them in the discussion.

As for asking Sky - I am pretty sure that I know the answer they will give. It is in breach of their terms and conditions, but I think we all know that!

Now for Everybody Else.

The copyright angle is interesting. But, just by watching a programme are you in breach of copyright? If you listen to an illegal copy of a CD have you committed an offence?

As for the owners of the film rights - I bet they charge the broadcasters by how many subscribers they have, so will not really care whether that royalty comes via Sky or Canal+. However, I can see a problem with the non encrypted services, especially concerning sports.

 

[Quillan]

Well I have tried to get on the Sky website but it appears to be down. I have not found anything on the BBC website but have asked the following question

"I visited a friend who has BBC TV here in Southern France. He bought a box and dish from a local DIY shop and set it up himself. My question is this, is doing this perfectly legal and if not why and what law(s) does it break.

Thanks."

I know it's not strictly accurate on the circumstances but the question is and we will see what reply I get.

There is some information on BBC radio abroad which says that other than the world service which is transmitted directly by the government and not the BBC it is illegal for then to re-transmit their programs in other countries.

I can only assume that the reason is copyright in the same way perhaps as DVD's which are bought for a sole purpose, that of home entertainment. You need to buy a special licence if you want to use the DVD in a public place etc. But again this is all civil stuff.

If I get an answer from the BBC I will post it here.

[Ron Avery]

John

Surely the whole point is why people watching SKY in France are in breach of SKY's terms and conditions, that is why it might be useful to find out from SKY why you cannot subscribe if you live in France.  The other issue is SKY being in breach of French licensing laws if they knowingly alow French residents to receive their broadcasts, which is I believe why you cannot subscribe to SKY with a French address.

As an aside. the Pirate broadcasters were forced off the air by making it an offence not only to broadcast but to aid and abet those who did, this meant that not only were the broadcasters liable to prosecution in the UK but also all the businesses that supplied them with records, food etc.

[JohnM]

Actually, I disagree. The whole point of my original posting was to discuss the legal semantics  concerning "receiving" SKY signals, but I now wish I had just said signals from satellites. I'm not bothered what Sky's T&C say, they don't concern me (as I have no desire to watch Sky in France). But I find the legal side very interesting. Let's drop Sky from the equation, its T&C are confusing the issue. The BBC don't want you/us to watch the programmes intended for the UK either. Now, you don't need to sign up to any T&C to do that - a box and dish from the local Brico will work. Do "I" actually break any laws if I decide to do that?

 

[Porth]

For my sins I was a senior employee with Cable and Wireless as well as being a lawyer.  Sky as we know it is only destined to be received in the UK.  Fact and absolute fact.  Taking the card out of the UK and despite continuing to pay the monthly fee does not absolve you from what is a breach of contract.  Fact and absolute fact once more.

Again it is what is in your mind which actually dictates what offence you are commiting.  If you think what the hell they will not know for I am outside the minimum contract period and the telephone is disconnected I cannot be doing any wrong.

You are but equally has anyone incurred the displeasure of Sky by taking the card outside of the UK.  There must be thousands of people within France and Spain who continue to view programmes but technically and very technically they are in breach of the contract between themselves and Sky.

Some of you will remember the threads of many years ago when people were taking advantage of say twenty four hours return and promotional fares on the ferry but not intending at all to return.  Thus your mind is saying what the hell I am going to do it they will not realise what is going on.  However what is really going on is a form of conspiracy in your mind and your intent is both to deceive and defraud.

Mute point but what difference does it now make I am retired wigs and gowns are a thing of the past.

 

rdgs