Another Neufbox Question

[UlsterRugby1999]

We have a 2Mb package through SFR and our Neufbox for over one year or so. We have several PC's connected by WiFi and generally there is no problem even when 2, 3 or 4 of them are all on line either from surfing or networking. No complaints from that aspect. In addition, we also have our telephone system run via VoiP using WiFi connected phones of which there are four units.

The problem, which has started over the past 2-3 weeks is that the phone quality disintegrates into scrambled gibberish and this is usually (I think) in the late afternoon and evening. We can hear the folks on the other end clearly but they, often, cannot hear a word we are saying.

Its strange that it isnt all the time. I've tried resetting the router but this has little or no effect.

Is there any way to test the set up to help me determine if it is the router or the phones.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I've experienced similar things on my Livebox phone too, although not to the extent you are talking about.

I put it down to the adverse weather we've been having.

[Frenchie]

For some reason, I sometimes lose my internet connection with my neufbox, (    bout once a day!!), I unplug it, wait for about 20 seconds,

plug it again, then it works again in most cases.. sometimes not, and I just have to be patient ( which I am in no way!! ) , til it works again..

Has anyone experienced this too?

 

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]I've experienced similar things on my Livebox phone too, although not to the extent you are talking about. I put it down to the adverse weather we've been having.[/quote]

We have come to this conclusion too and I suspect that you have hit the nail on the head especially with what we have had over the past few weeks but I cannot figure why it is only in the evening.

[quote user="Frenchie"]

For some reason, I sometimes lose my internet connection with my neufbox, (    bout once a day!!), I unplug it, wait for about 20 seconds,

plug it again, then it works again in most cases.. sometimes not, and I just have to be patient ( which I am in no way!! ) , til it works again..

Has anyone experienced this too?[/quote]

No Frenchie - the internet might slow down from time to time (hardly surprising when you consider that we might have 4 or more PC's connected) but never lost the internet connection. It is just the phone with us and it could last for a few hours. There is no fix that we have found so far and as I say even rebooting the router doesnt help. [:(]

[Quillan]

If I were you I would contact the tech support help desk. There is no way this should be happening, its either the box, the line or something at their end. If it were me I would be jumping up and down. The last time I had to do anything to my box was when there was a  power cut and the phone line didn't come 'up', a quick reset and everything was back to normal. Other than that I have probably only reset it about once in a year, in fact it was so long ago I can't remember exactly when it was. One things for sure though, reading all these issues about Neuf, SFR, Teleconnect etc makes me glad I am with Orange.

One possible reason why you get a problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down grading the line quality in some cases.

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote user="Quillan"]

If I were you I would contact the tech support help desk. There is no way this should be happening, its either the box, the line or something at their end. If it were me I would be jumping up and down. The last time I had to do anything to my box was when there was a  power cut and the phone line didn't come 'up', a quick reset and everything was back to normal. Other than that I have probably only reset it about once in a year, in fact it was so long ago I can't remember exactly when it was. One things for sure though, reading all these issues about Neuf, SFR, Teleconnect etc makes me glad I am with Orange.

One possible reason why you get a problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down grading the line quality in some cases.[/quote]

My dear Quillan you know that we Ulstermen NEVER jump up and down (except when we win a Grand Slam [;-)]). I would contact the helpdesk but I want to ensure that it isnt my equipment (so to speak) before I get launched into some youngster who will struggle with my French spoken strewn with Ulsterisms. Its the intermittence of the fault that confuses me most or perhaps this is why I should be looking at the line/router direction as the equipment would either fail or not surely ????

[Quillan]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"][quote user="Quillan"]

If I were you I would contact the tech support help desk. There is no way this should be happening, its either the box, the line or something at their end. If it were me I would be jumping up and down. The last time I had to do anything to my box was when there was a  power cut and the phone line didn't come 'up', a quick reset and everything was back to normal. Other than that I have probably only reset it about once in a year, in fact it was so long ago I can't remember exactly when it was. One things for sure though, reading all these issues about Neuf, SFR, Teleconnect etc makes me glad I am with Orange.

One possible reason why you get a problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down grading the line quality in some cases.[/quote]

My dear Quillan you know that we Ulstermen NEVER jump up and down (except when we win a Grand Slam [;-)]). I would contact the helpdesk but I want to ensure that it isnt my equipment (so to speak) before I get launched into some youngster who will struggle with my French spoken strewn with Ulsterisms. Its the intermittence of the fault that confuses me most or perhaps this is why I should be looking at the line/router direction as the equipment would either fail or not surely ????

[/quote]

Sorry old chap seems we posted at the same time and you beat me to it, I was actually replying to Frenchie. [;-)]

That aside we do sometimes get what I call the 'mobile phone' effect i.e. when they are on the edge of a cell and the voice cuts in and out but again its only happened a couple of times and in some ways this technology is a little in its infancy with regards to public networks. I mean they have only just got call forwarding working at Orange which has taken its time in coming and is a great asset to us (means we can leave the house together and not miss a call from a potential guest).

[Lehaut]

I have had the same problem and (although I know others on the forum disagree), if you are uploading quantities of information on the internet which take up more than (in my case) 50kbs out of the 80kbs available (ie 500kb out of the 800kb updload capacity of the SFR system here), then there is insufficient capacity left for the up (your talking part) of the VOIP to work.  You can hear the people OK because you have 2mb download and rarely if ever approach the capacity of that.

If I allow the upload to run on one computer alone at 75kbs, then the breakup of the calls is very evident.  If I stop the upload or reduce it, then calls are possible.

This solution will only work if you are uploading stuff (or your WiFi is unsecured and someone is piggy backing on your system and is uploading).

If you have loaded the NEUF/SFR disk that came with the installation, there is part of the diagnosics package that has a vertial display that shows real time the actual loading on the system, its worth looking at that to see how much of the capacity you are using at certain parts of the day, and when each computer (and operator) is on.

The joys of ADSL.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Quillan"]One possible reason why you get a

problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the

lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross

sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus

changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down

grading the line quality in some cases.[/quote]Come on Quillan, I know

you said possibly and in some cases, but what sort of talk is this ?

What

about in the Summer when 40+deg heat causes the cables to

sag far more than they would ever do in Winter with a bit of snow on them [blink]

If any such phenomena were taking place sufficiently

to cause a noticeable problem then you would see it in the line

attenuation in your router but honestly I don't think that any change

in cross sectional area caused by

seasonal expansion or contraction would be anywhere near the order to do that.

[Quillan]

Yes but in summer its heat but not in winter. The problem in winter is more often caused when it snows or there is ice which sags the line. Think of a railway line, in summer it expands but does not change the cross section, if it did the trains would fall off the track (I am trying to keep it simple). If however you got hold of both ends and stretched it the cross section would get smaller, bit like an elastic band. As you pointed out I am not saying that this is the problem because other factors would come in to play like does it revert to a multi strand cable, how long is the run and does it all go above ground etc, etc. What was said is that it happens in the evenings and has only just started during the cold weather. Evenings, temperature drops, snow or water on the line freezes and the line gets heavier, just a thought. Likewise it could be water/condensation in the junction box's freezing. If somebody can prove me wrong I wouldn't be unhappy and it is just a thought after all. I guess the only way to know is to carry out an attenuation test at different times, particularly when the problem arises.

[UlsterRugby1999]

I knew what you meant young Quillan - I'm going to run the diagnostics over the weekend and see where that takes me. Then, at the same time, I'm going to watch the YouTube video to learn how to JUMP UP & DOWN  [;-)][:D]

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Quillan"]

One possible reason why you get a problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down grading the line quality in some cases.[/quote]

Nice theory but surely in freezing conditions the counteraction of the copper due to the cold more than compensates against any sag caused by the weight of any ice.

Or, to put it another way, they shrink in winter and expand in summer.

Well, mine do [:P][:D]

.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="Quillan"]
One possible reason why you get a problem with speed and phone calls in extreme cold weather is that the lines physically sag from post to post which in turn reduces the cross sectional area of the copper cable and effectively makes it longer thus changing the characteristics of the cable with the effect of down grading the line quality in some cases.[/quote]

Nice theory but surely in freezing conditions the counteraction of the copper due to the cold more than compensates against any sag caused by the weight of any ice.

Or, to put it another way, they shrink in winter and expand in summer.

Well, mine do [:P][:D]

[/quote]

Do you not remember 'coefficient of linear expansion' from physics at school, the cross sectional area does not change that much if hardly at all but we are talking about stretching due to weight where the cross section does change as like I said an elastic band. What does happen when it gets very cold is the metal gets more brittle but by 'mixing' the combinations of metals in the wire this can be drastically reduced. The resistance of the wire will also change with temperature (and stretching) as well with the effect of electrically making the cable seem longer than it is in normal conditions. Put the two together, throw in some dodgy connections and you could get quite a difference in the impedance of the line. Without really testing the line it's difficult to prove one way or another although a basic proof could be if the problem has now gone what with the temperature and snow/ice going as well. As I said its only a thought.

Added

This got me going a bit so I just did a search on "What effect does cold weather have on adsl" and guess what, those experiencing problems are not alone. It does not conclusively prove my theory as some say the same or similar but there are other theories as well but all seem to agree its something to do with the cold and the line plus connections between the termination in the house/flat whatever and the exchange.

[AnOther]

Don't ask me to do the maths but.............[+o(]

http://www.dossert.com/technicalinfo/barecopperwire.htm

On a down to earth practical note, whether +45deg or -15 the attenuation of my line remains within fractions of a dB of nominal so whatever stretch or shrink may or may not be occuring it has no perceptible effect on actual performance [;-)]

EDIT: Personally I'm more inclined to think that any deterioration in performance in cold weather might be due to people staying home and going on line more hence putting pressure on the infrastructure as a whole.

[Quillan]

I just did the maths based on -10 deg C and the calculus given and there is quite a difference over the mile using the medium half drawn example.[;-)] I did notice than when my line was replaced and I collected the scrap in my garden that the two cores were of different metals (one was white the other copper) but I am not sure why this is. The bottom line is that for those experiencing the problem and if they are still getting it to check everything 'in house' then contact tech support to see what they have to say. Don't forget this only appears to happen late afternoon and in the evening.

[AnOther]

Would you care to quantify 'quite a difference' ?

If the problem is indeed occurring in the afternoons and evening it is highly suggestive of atmospheric interference and not a line problem per se.

[Quillan]

[quote user="AnOther"]
If the problem is indeed occurring in the afternoons and evening it is highly suggestive of atmospheric interference and not a line problem per se.

[/quote]

 

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

The problem, which has started over the past 2-3 weeks is that the phone quality disintegrates into scrambled gibberish and this is usually (I think) in the late afternoon and evening. We can hear the folks on the other end clearly but they, often, cannot hear a word we are saying.

Its strange that it isnt all the time. I've tried resetting the router but this has little or no effect.

[/quote]

[UlsterRugby1999]

Interestingly, I went into the SFR software on the main desktop and ran the various diagnostics that were available. The main thing I found was that while it is set to search for updates every month there was, in fact, an update which had been available for a few months. Anyway, I updated it and then ran the tests all of which indicated that the adsl signal was decent and everything was connected and working well. For a 2Mb package we are getting 2.4Mb of download and 323Kb of upload. Which is more or less what it was when we changed over to SFR. Mmmmmm [8-)][8-)]

[Lehaut]

Did you find the display that shows on the SFR package the amount of your upload and download that was being used? If so, what did it indicate in the evening when you have the problems?

The other thing to try is to make a call in the evening when there is the problem, then disconnect the internet connection from the SFR box to all the other computers and see if the line quality improves.

I had exactly the same problem with NEUF when they first connected me. 

http://www.justneuf.com/topic/109261-conversation-hachee/    is the same problem discussed on the Just Neuf Forum

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote user="Lehaut"]

Did you find the display that shows on the SFR package the amount of your upload and download that was being used? If so, what did it indicate in the evening when you have the problems?

The other thing to try is to make a call in the evening when there is the problem, then disconnect the internet connection from the SFR box to all the other computers and see if the line quality improves.

I had exactly the same problem with NEUF when they first connected me. 

http://www.justneuf.com/topic/109261-conversation-hachee/    is the same problem discussed on the Just Neuf Forum[/quote]

Eeerrrrmmm Lehaut - I'm not sure. Is that the window with the two slider bars showing activity on uploads and downloads. If so I forgot to check that last night. I'll do it tonight and try your other test too. Cheers for your thoughts by the way.

[Lehaut]

Yes its the one with the two slider bars.  It should be obvious which is which and you can gauge the activity and the amount of your debit and montant that you are using, the more montant (up) the less chance you have of getting a clear telephone call.  Is there anyone else in the house that just uses the computer when you have these problems?

[UlsterRugby1999]

There are usually 3-4 PCs running at anyone time although they may not actually be uploading or downloading. I'll check it tonight when its about the usual time for the problem to happen and then I'll ring our number from a mobile and test it that way. Thanks for your input Lehaut.

[UlsterRugby1999]

Last night I tested the house (VoiP) phone by calling it from my mobile. It was terrible. So I repeated the test while watching the slider bars. There was little or no activity showing on either upload or download. Upload showed a 270kb while download was 2034kb available while the green bars were virtually invisible. So I guess it wasnt traffic causing it. [8-)][8-)]

[Lehaut]

If I understand your previous statement "For a 2Mb package we are getting 2.4Mb of download and 323Kb of upload" and when you looked last night the upload showed 270kb being used (if I understand it correctly), something is using 83% of your available upload and would provoke a degredation.

DId you try the phone call with all the computer off or disconnected from the SFR box?

[AnOther]

FWIW last night I was downloading something which, according to my (accurate) activity monitor, was maxing out my 1mb connection whilst at the time OH was on the VoIP phone to her friend in Spain with no problems.

This is a common situation for here.