Mac help requests

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Could someone please explain why people who post requests for help with their Macs get ignored by the Apple enthusiasts but PC tech support questions are met with a recommendation to ditch the machine and buy a Mac?

By the way, I own a Mac, among other kit, but can't get into the religious wars.

[bubbles]

I'm an Apple enthusiast and would willingly help with requests from people wanting help.

But......... I know nothing!!!!!!!!!

My Mac just works and works and works.

It talks to me in simple language and I only seem to need help when trying to add stuff such as a new printer or a wireless router.

I recently had to throw away my 12 year old iMac just because we are moving and we need the space.

So, just to save me getting a smart haircut and coming round knocking on your door to try and convert you,

get a Mac!!!!!!!

[Bugsy]

I saw your post yesterday Albert but have been rather busy.

.

[Anton Redman II]

Short answer Apples work straight out of the box and since the Apple III have not had any space inside them for people to plug in stuff to change the way they behave. The operating system is just that rather than a shell dragging legacy problems, when Apple change OS they do just that rather than leaving odd bits of the past embedded.

Owned various PCs over the last 30 odd years, always bought PCs rather than Apples for price to performance reasons, but always liked using Apples when I have my hands on one. I suspect the journey in the other direction is horrid.Also in general Apple error messages mean what they say and Apple help screens are eponymous. 90% of PC error messages describe the symptom not the cure. 

Result people use Apples do just that and never have to develop any technical expertise. Rather like people who run a BMW mini rather than the original.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Anton Redman II"]Result people use Apples do just that and never have to develop any technical expertise. [/quote]

Really! well I never knew that. All that effort for nothing [:)]

I also must tell my daughter that she's spent the last fifteen years wasting her time on Apple software. [Www]

.

[allanb]

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]Could someone please explain why people who post requests for help with their Macs get ignored by the Apple enthusiasts...?[/quote]

I don't know whether you're referring to requests posted on this forum, but if so, maybe you should try a specialist Mac forum instead, such as  http://forums.macosxhints.com/

A lot of what's there is a long way beyond me, but I've had useful answers to some of my elementary questions.

Good luck.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

allanb,

I was referring to requests posted by other members. I can usually sort out problems with my resident Mac, given time. Your pointer to a useful external forum is sensible and may be the best way to deal with help requests; definitely nicer than ignoring the poor blighters.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Anton Redman II"]

Short answer Apples work straight out of the box and since the Apple III have not had any space inside them for people to plug in stuff to change the way they behave.

....

Result people use Apples do just that and never have to develop any technical expertise. Rather like people who run a BMW mini rather than the original.

[/quote]

Anton, sorry to have to correct you, but there have been internally expansible Macs for donkey's years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Pro

Also, I'd be interested to know how many PC users (apart from hard-core gamers) have added any expansion cards to their machines. Of course, laptops are effectively sealed units anyway.

None of this is intended as a Mac / PC comparison. I've used both, plus other makes and operating systems over the years. Professionally I've been tied into Windows for the last 15 years because there is no Mac software that covers my particular needs, although I did use a Mac for all my business correspondence for a couple of years.

[Anton Redman II]

There have been expansible but after the Apple II which probably was the ultimate open machine the company ethos has not been toward open machines and my experience remains that Apple buyers buy their machines to do a job. 

My last two PCs have been off the shelf, the only drive to purchase was that I needed to run the latest versions on Word, Powerpoint and Excel. It is no longer cost effective to do anything much with PCs. Prior to that Golem began life as an 80186 Research Machine and ended up as a Pentium. Along the way clock ram cards, video cards,modems, ethernet adaptors, hard disks power supplies all came and went infact everything bar the case changed.

The only occasion I have ever had to strip a Mac was to remove a chip in order to install it in a portable clone. Slightly ditzy MD who wanted a portable but could only work with Macs.

[DavidSteward]

I can't recall any Mac queries not getting help, can you quote specific posts that have been ignored.

David

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="DavidSteward"]I can't recall any Mac queries not getting help, can you quote specific posts that have been ignored. David[/quote]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2203890/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2203894/ShowPost.aspx

The first had a couple of PC people trying to help until the Mac bit became apparent. The second got no replies at all.

[devilsadvocate]

I can't help with your original problem I'm afraid, but the lack of other helpful responses is probably just because there are relatively many fewer MAC users than PC users, and consequently fewer experts out there.

It's a factor one should consider when shelling out the higher purchase price for the kit in the first place. Whilst MACs have a good reputation for reliability you're more likely to have to find your own solution when things go wrong. In any case PCs are pretty reliable these days and you could probably buy 2 PCs for the price of a MAC. The thing that puts me off (besides the price) is the incompatibility with many software products which I already use and which will not run on MAC, although that situation is improving. Having spent 25 years using PCs I'm not ready to have to learn a new/different way of doing the same old stuff.

Have you tried searching for MAC users forums? Surely they must exist!

 

[pachapapa]

Recently had 4 visitors, 3 devoted Mac users, 1 used to be but no more. The recent change of government is changing certain administrative practices in medicine. Anyway to cut a long story short the USB finger print checker and access to confidential NHS files was only possible after I had lent the Mac user an old Windows XP SP1 installation in french and XP was updated and up and running on a partition.[:D]

Personally I have left an old XP portable in the UK so I dont have to use a Mac, even something simple like watching a bullfight streamed from a spanish TV station becomes a drama of Flash Player compatibility, etc, etc.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="devilsadvocate"]The thing that puts me off (besides the price) is the incompatibility with many software products which I already use and which will not run on MAC, although that situation is improving. [/quote]

Still a common myth I'm afraid. All of the newer 'Intel'-based iMacs will run 'Windows-based programmes (if you want to) and Mac software is readily available for most applications.

It is true that they cost more but they are better designed and more robust.

One of the initial selling points for me, the removal of stuff you no longer need is a piece of cake. (no shared 'dll' files to cause chaos, just drag the item into the 'trash' and its gone) try doing that with Norton or AOL apps on a PC.

[quote user="devilsadvocate"] Having spent 25 years using PCs I'm not ready to have to

learn a new/different way of doing the same old stuff. [/quote]

You really don't know what you're missing.

.

[devilsadvocate]

[quote user="Bugsy"]
You really don't know what you're missing.

[/quote]

...thankfully [;-)]

When you've worked in a particular branch of the IT industry, software development and support, you learn what to avoid. I have a stack of accumulated software which is very expensive and there's no way I'd buy a machine which runs a completely different OS and then try and force it to run software designed for an altogether different beast. It's asking for trouble. Neither would I wish to replace it all with MAC versions if it was available.

I found that MAC users are very loyal, partisan really, but they are still a minority, and as demonstrated by this thread, when it comes to sorting out a problem it's difficult to find solutions.

You're probably "just" a user Bugsy (no disrespect); I'm guessing by your having been advised by your daughter, but those of us who still like to get our hands dirty don't mind removing unwanted dlls (whatever they are [:D]).

The biggest problem I had was that MACs wouldn't connect into conventional large office networks which were running Back Office servers and the like. And it is still unusual to find companies supplying staff with MAC laptops with which to conduct their day to day business, UNLESS that business specifically requires a MAC application. Firms have budgets too, just like us.

There is no doubt that the kit is well made and servicable. As far as I remember they started out being used for many types of graphic design application and typesetting etc One of my colleagues still makes a profitable sideline selling Apple spares on Ebay.

Another benefit often quoted is that MACs don't get viruses. The real reason is that the idiots who write viruses don't find sufficient pleasure in inconveniencing a handful of people when Mr Gates and several million PC users can be irritated instead.

Old dogs and new tricks springs to mind! There's a fairly balanced summary here http://www.wisegeek.com/should-i-buy-a-mac-or-a-pc.htm 

I hope the OP gets his problem sorted, have you any ideas on that Bugsy?

DA

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Bugsy"]All of the newer 'Intel'-based iMacs will run 'Windows-based programmes (if you want to) and Mac software is readily available for most applications.
[/quote]

Does this mean that you can open something like MS Access directly within the Mac OS X environment, or do you need to restart in a complete instance of Windows?

Alternatively, can you suggest a Mac app with the connectivity (ODBC or equivalent) and programmability of MS Access as a desktop DBMS. Please don't say 'Filemaker'. Access just happens to be mission critical to my particular business niche.

Having used a Mac to run my business for a couple of years I wasn't sorry to go back to PCs when I started working away from home and needed to operate off my laptop. With a Mac I found that I needed a larger screen than for Windows, due to the pretties and the way that the windows work. I also find it a royal pain that you can only resize a Mac window by dragging the bottom right hand corner, rather than grabbing any side or corner. As for the one-button mouse -- I replaced that with a two-button jobbie very early on.

My wife still uses the Mac as her business machine as well as for Web surfing. She sometimes gets the spinning wheel of death, particularly on Powerpoint presentations she receives, which means a quick forced quit is called for.

Personally I don't see any major differences between Macs and PCs for most people nowadays. It's really a matter of personal preference.

I'll probably be moving most of my own machines over to Linux in the near future, so I really don't have any axe to grind for Microsoft.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="devilsadvocate"]You're probably "just" a user Bugsy (no disrespect);[/quote]

As opposed to what exactly?

Surely, if we own a 'machine', we're all users, or did you mean, perhaps, business as opposed to home use ?

[quote user="devilsadvocate"]but those of us who still like to get our hands dirty don't mind removing unwanted dlls;[/quote]

shared dll files [:D] [:D]

Remove them at your peril.................. (note for those without the necessary skills)

.

[devilsadvocate]

[quote user="Bugsy"]

As opposed to what exactly?

.............. (note for those without the necessary skills)

[/quote]

Oh dear! Well exactly that! I meant "as opposed to those with the necessary skills". Knowing how these things work and being able to get into the nitty-gritty of the OS and hardware.

I think your mention of unwanted dlls is a red herring. I've never found it necessary to go looking for these, and I'm speaking from professional experience; there are better and safer ways of removing unwanted applications and that just goes to show what I meant. A little knowledge......   [Www]

If you know so much how about fixing our OP's problem instead of having a go at me? Yak yak yak.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="devilsadvocate"]

Oh dear! Well exactly that! I meant "as opposed to those with the necessary skills". Knowing how these things work and being able to get into the nitty-gritty of the OS and hardware.

I think your mention of unwanted dlls is a red herring. I've never found it necessary to go looking for these, and I'm speaking from professional experience; there are better and safer ways of removing unwanted applications and that just goes to show what I meant. A little knowledge......   [Www]

If you know so much how about fixing our OP's problem instead of having a go at me? Yak yak yak.

[/quote]

Not sure where I have "had a go at you" but whatever.

At least have the decency to quote my whole comment not just part of it. It was not aimed at you, but those who may read this thread and have limited skills with Windows, hence the warning "Remove them at your peril.................. (note for those without the necessary skills)"

I defy you to describe how you have, or can, for example, completely remove an AOL or a Norton Antivirus programme from a PC, without ending up doing a re-format.

Interesting that you can cast judgement on a persons skills without having any knowledge of that individual. But whatever.................... if it makes you feel good.

BTW the OP doesn't have a problem that needs 'fixing'

Must go Nev,  got a Commodore 64 to sort out..[Www]

.

[devilsadvocate]

[quote user="Bugsy"][quote user="devilsadvocate"]

Oh dear! Well exactly that! I meant "as opposed to those with the necessary skills". Knowing how these things work and being able to get into the nitty-gritty of the OS and hardware.

I think your mention of unwanted dlls is a red herring. I've never found it necessary to go looking for these, and I'm speaking from professional experience; there are better and safer ways of removing unwanted applications and that just goes to show what I meant. A little knowledge......   [Www]

If you know so much how about fixing our OP's problem instead of having a go at me? Yak yak yak.

[/quote]

Not sure where I have "had a go at you" but whatever.

At least have the decency to quote my whole comment not just part of it. It was not aimed at you, but those who may read this thread and have limited skills with Windows, hence the warning "Remove them at your peril.................. (note for those without the necessary skills)"

I defy you to describe how you have, or can, for example, completely remove an AOL or a Norton Antivirus programme from a PC, without ending up doing a re-format.

Interesting that you can cast judgement on a persons skills without having any knowledge of that individual. But whatever.................... if it makes you feel good.

BTW the OP doesn't have a problem that needs 'fixing'

Must go Nev,  got a Commodore 64 to sort out..[Www]

.
[/quote]

Eh??? Is this a joke? If so I think it's misplaced.  I understand that this forum doesn't disclose personal information and it is extremely bad form for you to name people when they prefer to use a nickname. However, you've missed by a country mile. I am DA [6], but Frank if you must.

Using the search forum facility I found 2 people who matched the name you quote; one of them only posted once so I guess you're referring to a motorcycling poster. I'm a Jeremy Clarkson follower and I don't have a motorcycle, but I've PM'd "Sid" for you. I hope the moderators are tracking this.

OK, this time I've quoted your full post as requested.

All traces of Norton software can be safely removed using their specific removal tool, available from the Symantec website. I ran Norton for 3 or 4 years before it got out of hand. I can assure you that the removal works very well.  Definitely no reformatting necessary. What are you thinking of?

AOL: I have never used it. Back in the early days AOL email addresses consisted of numeric codes; that was enough to put me off when all other ISPs were using what are now know as conventional, meaningful (mostly) addresses. So, I can't quote from experience. However, a quick "Google" reveals that AOL has an uninstall process which performs a scan of your system for all AOL related files. That would seem to be good enough for most people.

Casting judgement on a person's skills? It's amazing what the forum search facility brings up! In one of your recent posts you said that you had managed a campsite in UK before you came here, five years I believe? That tells me a little about recent relevent skills; I can see that it wouldn't exactly equip you for evaluating computer equipment, at least not in any credible way. Then you take your daughter's advice and buy a MAC. Now there's nothing wrong with taking advice, obviously, and your daughter probably has good reason for advising you along those lines; she likes that kit and perhaps she recognises your skill level? [Www] In which case I'd have to admit it would a sound choice.  

I, on the other hand, spent the last 25 years managing various teams of software developers and support staff UK-wide, and writing front-end stuff myself, and then running a company of my own. It's a little different, I'm sure most people would agree, and I think I can judge for myself what's best for me.

When I said that you were a user, and I emphasise again that this wasn't meant in any disrespectful way, it was in contrast to someone who actually writes the stuff that you use. You didn't appear to understand this. I don't know what you do on your computer apart from write on this, and other forums, but you could probably manage nicely with an iPhone (now there's a piece of kit!). You use all this marvellous software but there whole legions of people out there developing it for you! I hope this makes it clear. I suppose a simple analogy would be two householders; one is just content to switch the lights on and off at home without wondering how it all works, whilst the other is an electrician by trade and installs the wiring and knows what goes where. He still switches stuff on and off of course, so they're both users. Not a brilliant analogy I admit. I could try a motorbike builder/rider but I haven't the first clue about that apart from what I've seen on American Chopper!

I should also point out that I never said that MACs were no good. Just the opposite. BUT they're no good for my purpose. I couldn't advise someone to buy one because I don't know enough from my own experience.

You are correct in that the orginal poster on this thread didn't report a problem, but he did ask why 2 MAC problem queries in other threads had gone unanswered. Was it for lack of finding anyone capable of working on these machines? And you said were going to try and find a solution when you had time. It's been days, and as you obviously have time now to post on this thread, I wondered whether you could put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, and solve either of them? I'm sure there must be, oooh, dozens of other MAC user out there waiting with bated breath, and thousands of PC users falling about laughing. [:D]

So it's a little challenge really, having done the big build-up what IS the answer (to either of them)? I notice that both problems (Mail inbox and iMac volume) were posted on 3rd August, fifteen days ago. Fortunately there is one person genuinely trying to help there. Never mind, keep up the bluffing and someone else will have sorted it all out.

If this sort of time lag is typical of how long someone has to wait for help with on a MAC, it's no wonder they're not as popular, and that's before you take account of the price.  I would fix my own PC problem certainly within the same day, or find a solution elsewhere, as there are loads of help resources out there.

I rest my case.

Go easy with the posts, all that hot air is contributing to global warming. Good luck with the Commodore [8-|]

[6]

 

 

[Bugsy]

Well, there you go 'Frank'.

All those words to tell everyone that you are, or were 'Frank, the Software Programmer' in a previous life.

I am now in awe of your stated knowledge, [:P] however, a little surprised, given those obvious skills, that you believe that using Symantecs 'removal tools' rids a system completely, it simply doesn't. It leaves, in true Windows fashion, shared dll files that whilst probably do little harm, they are still in there. If you check through your research on me you'll find that's all I actually said.

I'm sorry you had to do all that research on me, must have taken you

ages and it still doesn't really give you much of a clue really. If you were so desperate to know, you only had to ask, I've no secrets. All a

bit sad don't you think.

Oh, FYI as you're so interested, the campsite job was only a pre-retirement fill-in prior to moving here. The other 37 years of my working life were quite different.

One has to ask, of course, why, especially given your stated skills in that field, you didn't offer any advice to those threads posted by Albert. Or are you simply using the anonimity of this forum to keep talking out of your ar5e.

Keep taking the pills 'Frank', they will work eventually.

.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Bugsy"]Well, there you go 'Frank'.
...
One has to ask, of course, why, especially given your stated skills in that field, you didn't offer any advice to those threads posted by Albert.
[/quote]

As far as I can see, Frank freely acknowledged that he had no professional Mac experience. In that case it would not seem reasonable to expect him to solve Mac problems.

As someone who has used PC, Mac, Amiga, Apple II and PDP 11 kit professionally (i.e. to earn money) over the years I'd be classified as a 'user' on most of them. Even having spent the last 15 years as a database programmer on PCs hasn't given me the technical support skills of a lot of posters on this, and similar, forums.

My original reason for starting this thread was irritation at the 'junk your PC and buy a Mac' response that turns up so often when somebody needs help. When that combined with seeing a couple of Mac problems being totally ignored I began to wonder if many (not all!) Mac users are so sure that their kit 'just works' that they can't face dealing with evidence to the contrary.

[Bugsy]

The comment regarding 'junk your PC and buy a Mac' was last said, as far as I can see, on a thread about an old and 'bloated' PC and was only ever a 'tongue in cheek comment', nothing more. Thats why it was followed by a 'smiley' [:D]  Its called humour for those that don't understand it.

Of the two recent requests for help with a Mac, one has been resolved by the owner and one is still on-going.

It follows, on this as with anything, if you can't provide an answer, you can't really help. A check on Google shows that there is not a lot of information on the 'net' about the OP's 'volume-changing' problem which is probably why the response has not been large.

.

[NickP]

I fail to see the connection between someones occupation and the ability to understand computers. As a Camp site manager, a job I'd have thought  very interesting, I'd imagine that it would be necessary to have varied skills not least the ability to think on your feet quickly and solve problems instantly, so I don't see a computer posing too many problems. As a manual worker myself;  I've found that people with practical skills as opposed to theoretical ones tend to much more savvy about things in general, so maybe that accounts for the fact that people involved in the "arts" prefer to use Macs maybe they see advantages that the desk-bound don't.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]

I fail to see the connection between someones occupation and the ability to understand computers. As a Camp site manager, a job I'd have thought  very interesting, I'd imagine that it would be necessary to have varied skills not least the ability to think on your feet quickly and solve problems instantly, so I don't see a computer posing too many problems. As a manual worker myself;  I've found that people with practical skills as opposed to theoretical ones tend to much more savvy about things in general, so maybe that accounts for the fact that people involved in the "arts" prefer to use Macs maybe they see advantages that the desk-bound don't.

[/quote]

I would beg to differ with your first sentance, you should have a look at what training is mandatory to be a MCP, MCSE etc. Having held (multiple) Microsoft, Novell and CISCO certification for many years prior to retiring and changing my 'profession' I can tell you its both expensive and difficult to get and requires annual exams to maintain.

Anyway Apples were primarily used way back when because they could output a particular print format used by the print industry (Post Script) which enabled them to be connected directly to large commercial printing machines. Obviously specialised design software was written to do the art and design work etc, this software has, over time, been ported to run on PC's but those that started with Mac's felt it was not so good (incorrectly so) and have stuck with their Mac's. So Mac's have been used in the print industry for years and because of this legacy are the preferred machine for many designers. The biggest problem in the old days way networking, they used a different system to PC's, mini and mainframe computers, it was called Apple Talk, which made them difficult to integrate with existing systems, this is no longer the case. To be honest they are no better or worse than a PC, they are just different and suffer many of the same problems as PC's.