Clarkkent Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 The pub landlady who used a Greek source for TV relays of England football matches in her pub has won her case at the European Court of Appeal.Is this another nail in the coffin of the Murdoch empire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm really pleased to hear that! On the Today programme this morning a pundit was expressing the view that she would almost definitely lose. She was saying that there's nothing else she buys legally that she isn't allowed to use in her pub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 A victory for common sense over money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose (& Greyman) Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 and what will be the knock on effects regarding Sky et al refusing to supply their services to Continental users ? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote user="greyman"]and what will be the knock on effects regarding Sky et al refusing to supply their services to Continental users ? Interesting...[/quote]If you remember I posted about this at the beginning of the year. I would like to see what the 'judges' actually said because yes, your right, it could mean that 'we' could get Sky quiet legally now outside the UK. On the other side of the coin did I not read (somewhere on this forum if memory serves) that they are going to 'move' satellite again making the 'foot print' even smaller so the whole thing about Sky becomes irrelevant as you wouldn't be able to view it anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"] If you remember I posted about this at the beginning of the year. I would like to see what the 'judges' actually said because yes, your right, it could mean that 'we' could get Sky quiet legally now outside the UK. On the other side of the coin did I not read (somewhere on this forum if memory serves) that they are going to 'move' satellite again making the 'foot print' even smaller so the whole thing about Sky becomes irrelevant as you wouldn't be able to view it anyway?[/quote]This matter does not have any legal implications for people receiving Sky signals outside the UK. It has always been perfectly legal so to do. There is no UK or French law which says you cannot do this. The point in this case is that the landlady was giving a public performance of material that BSkyB believed that it had the sole rights to in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Quillan"] If you remember I posted about this at the beginning of the year. I would like to see what the 'judges' actually said because yes, your right, it could mean that 'we' could get Sky quiet legally now outside the UK. On the other side of the coin did I not read (somewhere on this forum if memory serves) that they are going to 'move' satellite again making the 'foot print' even smaller so the whole thing about Sky becomes irrelevant as you wouldn't be able to view it anyway?[/quote]This matter does not have any legal implications for people receiving Sky signals outside the UK. It has always been perfectly legal so to do. There is no UK or French law which says you cannot do this. The point in this case is that the landlady was giving a public performance of material that BSkyB believed that it had the sole rights to in the UK.[/quote]OK lets put it another way, a Sky subscription outside the UK using a non UK address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dart16 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 OK lets put it another way, a Sky subscription outside the UK using a non UK addressThis is SKYs problem as it contravenes their licencing conditions, as Clarkkent says.. a person viewing SKY in France is not breaking any laws. They are only guilty of contravening SKY's T&C's..... hardly a criminal offence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 [quote user="Clarkkent"]The point in this case is that the landlady was giving a public performance of material that BSkyB believed that it had the sole rights to in the UK.[/quote]Have I misunderstood or misheard the outcome of this case?My understanding is that as a result of this case, private individuals in the UK can now legally purchase and use equipment and subscriptions enabling them to receive Premier League match TV coverage delivered by non-UK, EU providers. However on the issue of the public performance, she lost. Didn't she?RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyn_Paul Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 .... and as for Sky letting us subscribe with a non-UK address... well it maybe getting cold outside, but it's some way yet from the sort of temperatures needed for Hell to freeze over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 To overcome the problem of the sound track being in Greek I think she played the Radio 5 Live commentary to accompany it. I suppose that might spoil the effect a bit.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 [quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Clarkkent"]The point in this case is that the landlady was giving a public performance of material that BSkyB believed that it had the sole rights to in the UK.[/quote]Have I misunderstood or misheard the outcome of this case?My understanding is that as a result of this case, private individuals in the UK can now legally purchase and use equipment and subscriptions enabling them to receive Premier League match TV coverage delivered by non-UK, EU providers. However on the issue of the public performance, she lost. Didn't she?RegardsPickles[/quote]Your right having read the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15162241 . However, and it seems you won't get this in writing, they said on the news program that basically all satellite broadcasts in the EU should not require any form of card in the decoder. This means for example people watching programs in France transmitted by SKY should not require a card. Likewise the requirement to have a card in your decoder in France to receive the basic channels (F2, ART etc excluding pay to view) is also not on. Great news for the French in the UK also as they won't need a card from Canal+ to view French tele in the UK (in theory). SKY is actually in advance of Canal+ in as much as if you remove your card you loose some channels but still get the basics where as on the other hand pull your Canal+ card and you get sod all. Interesting times and many will have to wait to see what happens. What I want to do is to be able to choose who I want to receive programs from, pay my money etc and get them wherever I am in Europe which is what I hope (and pray) will be the final result. Then on the other hand I won't be holding my breath.SKY and the law. If you use a SKY card, even though you don't pay for it monthly there are terms and conditions to which you must adhere. Part of that, which by actually using the card, you agree to is that you are resident in the UK or NI, the proof of this is try and get a 'free view' card from SKY sent to a none UK address. Legally this is a contractual thing between the user of the card and SKY. Technically if they catch you with one of their cards abroad, even if it is a 'free view' card you have broken your contract with them and is a civil law problem (i.e. breach of contract). A few years ago they did some raids in Spain, mainly bars but some individuals were caught as well. You don't go to prison, your just fined but if you don't pay up and the individual country has an extradition agreement with the UK they could put you in UK prison for non payment of fines.The other issue mentioned which is the reverse is the ability for one country to ban people receiving TV from another (which is the core of this case), what they have said is that this practice is illegal.So if this is not contested it does mean that providing you use something like a Humax box to get your UK TV programs then there is no problem. If you have a SKY box and a FTA card and thus get channels like Five US that whilst free need a SKY card to decode them you wil be in breach of the contract you had to physically get your card.Reality for many of us is carry on for the time being as you are but it's worth keeping an eye on as we may be able, in the future, to order films etc fromSKY with a French postal address for payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"] SKY and the law. If you use a SKY card, even though you don't pay for it monthly there are terms and conditions to which you must adhere. Part of that, which by actually using the card, you agree to is that you are resident in the UK or NI, the proof of this is try and get a 'free view' card from SKY sent to a none UK address. Legally this is a contractual thing between the user of the card and SKY. Technically if they catch you with one of their cards abroad, even if it is a 'free view' card you have broken your contract with them and is a civil law problem (i.e. breach of contract). A few years ago they did some raids in Spain, mainly bars but some individuals were caught as well. You don't go to prison, your just fined but if you don't pay up and the individual country has an extradition agreement with the UK they could put you in UK prison for non payment of fines.[/quote]This is where we need to be clear. I'm not a lawyer but I know the distinction between criminal law and civil law. If it is a breach of civil law you are not fined but may be sued for damages and this is of no concern to the state. (In days gone by, people were imprisoned for debt - they were sent to prison by the person they owed money to. If they managed to settle the debt they were released.) To the best of my knowledge no-one can be extradited for not winning a civil case. I suspect that if there were criminal procedings associated with the Spanish cases they were concerned with copyright theft (not having the right to show the programmes in public) and not just watching Sky programmes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 It's interesting that the journos have all published this as being a victory for "the pub landlady".... I understand that she has been supported by many of the brewers and pub chains. Sky charge them hundreds of pounds per month to show the footie, it's the Greek "commercial" license that is a lot cheaper. Mr average home viewer will not save much by swapping.It is also interesting that the reports were all how it is the Football Companies that are upset by by this (and not Mr Murdoch). Being one who doesn't understand the whole concept of paying football players a fortune, I tend to think that the fans ought to be watching at the ground and really supporting the team. Anyone watching at home on TV or in the pub is ONLY a spectator wanting a spot of entertainment. So I'd remove it from TV and Radio. End of problem :-) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Most people have missed the point in that SKY are most likely quite happy with the ruling, if as now seems likely the EU has to be treated a the same jurisdiction for TV distribution and licensing purposes. As this will mean they can sell their services throughout the EU. Whereas previously they were prevented from doing so, by the Premier League and other programme and film makers, who sought licensing on a country by country basis.The SKY T&C's are in place as part of their contractual obligations to the programme and film makers, from whom they have bought the broadcasting rights.BBC and ITV are unscrambled and free to air and can be picked up on any satellite box. Channel 4 and Five will also go free to air as soon as their contractual agreement with SKY ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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