Urgent EDF problem

[victor]

Last week we received a bill from EDF for 6,482.36 euros. After recovering from shock, I studied the bill. I also pulled all our bills that I could find since 2006.

We are 2 retired persons living near Sete in a house of 185M2 and use three phase electricity for heating, laundry, dishwasher, TV, telephone, frig, pool pump, computer, and hot water heater. We only use the clothes and dishwasher during heures creuses. We have always tried to be very careful with our utility usage. We do not use a clothes dryer.

The only rooms we have ever used the heat in are the salon, my study, shower room, and small WC. We have never used the heat in the kitchen, the foyer, or our two bedrooms.

Billing history: A=actual E=estimate

A May 2007 to Dec 12 2007 = 9,417 kw

A Dec 29 2008 to Oct 30 2009 = 6192 kw

A Oct 31 2009 to Dec 28 2009 = 244kw

E Dec 29 2010 to Dec 28 2011 =955kw

A July 2 2010 to July 2 2012 =58,871kw

A July 3 2012 to Dec 12 2012 = 6,272

The last two above "A" bills were in the bill we received this last week.

We never paid much attention to the bills as they did not seem excessive. The first thing I find VERY weird is that we did not receive an Actual bill for the period from December 29, 2010 through December 28, 2011. The second weird thing is we then last week we received a bill for the period July 2, 2010 through December 12, 2012. Third weird thing is that the bill received last week indicates that it is based on an actual reading.

Our meter is outside our entry gate thus the meter readers always had access. Does anyone have any

explination has to what could have happen?

I have spoken with EDF and someone is coming out next week to check the meter. However, the problem seems to have occurred sometime between 2010 and December 2011.

Can meters be hacked into? Could our meter have been replaced and the wrong data entered? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Victor

[Gardian]

Yes Victor, a nasty shock.  There's a cockup here somewhere.

Starting point - can you post your HC & HP readings for the dates in question, right from the very start?

So .........     HC    HP

May2007

Dec 2007

etc

[Quillan]

How do they read the meter, do they have to come inside the property?

[woolybanana]

Some holiday home friends close to me here had a misread of their electricity meter last year which produced a hideous bill. It wax eventually sorted by an EDF technician after much anguish. BUT there was no logic to the mistake such as a misplaced decimal point or similar. Strange.

[NormanH]

Are they catching up on previously estimated readings?

My annual bill for somewhere much smaller is around 2000€, so if you have been paying much less it could be that they haven't been reading the meter..

I would expect you to be using around 10000-11000 kwh a year which is far more than shown for 2009/10 etc, but is in line with your first bill.

The other possibility is that someone has hacked into your supply.

If you are on a low income you should see an aide sociale if the EDF insists on its figures

[idun]

Those figures you quote make no sense as there should be two readings if

you have heures creuses. And as you have all those electrical things,

is your fixed charge expensive??

What I do not understand is that you had your bills and knew that the later ones were estimates? didn't you?  And I was wondering why haven't you checked your own meter already. They are easy to get into.  You did pay something in 2010???

Whenever I get an electricity bill, I always read the meter and make sure it is OK. Which is OK me saying that now, but I thought it was simple basic housekeeping logic. I do the same with the gas meter too.  I hate estimated bills, because they are not really bills at all.

And I cannot get it through my Dad's skull that those things that he gets that are called bills are estimated and that simply are just a 'guess' and not really a bill at all. And yet he never ever reads his meter. Fortunately as it happens, his are not far off, but they could have been.

That is a lot of money that they are asking for and sadly from what NH has said, that bill could be right. So I hope that you get this sorted.

PS the EDF used to read our meter once a year, our meter was at the end of our drive at the edge of our property.

[victor]

Guardian,

I did do one chart with the HC and HP and kw and cost for each. It took me hours to wade through. However, I really need to do a cleaner chart thus Sunday I will do it and post it.

Thanks!

Victor

[victor]

Quillan,

As stated in my message, the meter is directly outside our entrance, and the meter reader always has free access to the meter. So the answer is that they do not have to come inside the property.

Victor

[victor]

Wolybanana,

I would be very interested in what the problem was. Just maybe the same problem occurred for us.

Thank you.

Victor

[woolybanana]

The meter was reread by an Edf technician and the mistake rectified.

No blame was ever attributed or apology issued.

You need to get the meter read by someone if you cant get there yourself. If the reading is wrong, then get edf to sort it.

[victor]

Norman H,

According to my analysis, there was only the period from December 29, 2010 to December 28, 2011 for which we received an estimated bill. How can they just estimate usage for an entire year? And, why have I not been reading the meter? Spread sheet design ahead.......UGH!

Given that the bill was so small, I should have contacted EDF immediately. Stupidly, I probably just glanced at it and put it in the file.

I agree with you that our usage should probably be around 10,000-11,000 kwh per year.

Maybe they are catching up on the previous estimated reading. I will on Sunday do another chart. This is driving me crazy trying to sort out the dates and amounts! Norman, if you are right, I will actually feel better about this whole thing. Thank you!

Victor

[victor]

Idun,

In the chart I sent, I added the two readings together. If we received a bill for 2010, I have not found it.The estimated bill for 2011 should have raised a red flag. As I said to Norman, I probably opened it, glanced at it, then filed it. Certainly a dumb thing to do. The 6,000 plus bill we received this past week covers July 2, 2010 through December 12, 2012.

Idun you asked "And as you have all those electrical things, is your fixed charge expensive??"

We live here full time: Every French person I know has a frig, a clothes washer, washing machine, TV, computer. I would prefer gas heat but the line is not near our house. The pool pump is run a few hours a day in the warm months. We have never heated our bedrooms or foyer and if the sun is out we do not begin to heat the house until there is no sun.

The Abonnement on the latest bill we received is 17.39 euros a month. The taxes on the bill are over 1,000 euros.

We have been stupid and whether the bill is correct or incorrect, we will be reading our meter every month and every time we receive a bill actual or estimated.

It appears that one can now send EDF the meter reading by computer. I am checking this out.

We appreciate your comments and we definitely will be reading the meter.

Thanks Idun.

Victor

[Clair]

[quote user="victor"]...whether the bill is correct or incorrect, we will be reading our meter every month and every time we receive a bill actual or estimated.

It appears that one can now send EDF the meter reading by computer. I am checking this out.

We appreciate your comments and we definitely will be reading the meter. [/quote]

Victor,

You can give EDF your own meter reading a couple of weeks before the bill is produced.

You need to register with Relevé Confiance on their website.

Once you've registered, they will send you a letter or email 2-3 weeks before they invoice. You read your meter, then go on their website to enter your reading. You can also do the same on their automated phone system (09 69 32 15 15). If you do not send your own reading, they will do an estimate.

This service is not available if you pay monthly or if you're invoiced only every 6 months.

Also, EDF are required to read the meter at least once a year and the date of the reading is stated on the back of the invoice. Can you check yours and see if a meter reading visit is stated?

I have 2 meters and they are read twice every year. As it happens, I had a letter last week to advise me of the technician's visit next week.

[sid]

This is difficult to understand without seeing all the bills and the meter.

Has the meter been replaced during your period of occupation? If not, take a reading NOW and subtract the initial reading on your oldest bill (for both feeds if you have heures creuses).  This will give you the total consumption for the whole term (6 years or whatever it is). You can then average out your annual consumption.  Does the reading on the huge bill agree with the reading on the meter?

If the meter has been replaced you should have received an official form with the date of the replacement work and showing the old and new readings (usually zero for the new one).

As Idun has said, I always check my meters after they've been read, and on receipt of a bill. The water meter has been misread twice. The electricity is read by a transponder device, so any error is likely to be in the accounting system somewhere.

[Chancer]

I have had to cobble together a couple of your postings

[quote user="victor"]

the estimated bill for 2011 should have raised a red flag. As I said to Norman, I probably opened it, glanced at it, then filed it. Certainly a dumb thing to do. The 6,000 plus bill we received this past week covers July 2, 2010 through December 12, 2012. Victor[/quote]

Billing history: A=actual E=estimate

A May 2007 to Dec 12 2007 = 9,417 kw
A Dec 29 2008 to Oct 30 2009 = 6192 kw
A Oct 31 2009 to Dec 28 2009 = 244kw
E Dec 29 2010 to Dec 28 2011 =955kw
A July 2 2010 to July 2 2012 =58,871kw
A July 3 2012 to Dec 12 2012 = 6,272

The last two above "A" bills were in the bill we received this last week

My theory is that the €17 a month that you pay is your abonnement plus the original estimation of your consumption which if so we can see is woefully inadequate.

My second hypothsesis is that when you recieve a corrected bill from the meter reading you dont pay it and just file it, or have done so on at least a couple of occasions, I think thats what you intimated above but your small monthly payment is always deducted and for typical EDF reasons then it doesnt flag as an unpaid bill just arrears.

How often do you recieve a bill? It should be every 2 months, I dont pay by prélevement or standing order so if dont pay I quickly get threatening letters, it seems that in your case they are happy to take the estimated €17 per month and then bill you a corrected amount when they take a meter reading once a year, maybe they missed one.

So it looks like you have got away without paying for a long time and now will have to fork out, you may be able to negotiate a payment plan with them but to do so means getting them to accept that have been negligent in their  responsibility, that will be a tall order.

On the positive side, given your experience I might just consider paying monthly myself!!!

Please correct me if I have misinterpreted and am wrong in the above.

 

[idun]

Yes, you have been able to give an internet reading for ages and always could do it over the phone, or write to them.

You also mention electricity for heating? that can be very very expensive depending on what it is in such a very big house as yours. We had a 120m² for a family of four, so I can visualise how much bigger yours is. Do you have a wood burner? I do realise which rooms you said you heat, but in such a big house a salon can be 'big' and not appear particularly so, and take a lot of heating.

[victor]

sid wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 10:53:

This is difficult to understand without seeing all the bills and the meter.

Has the meter been replaced during your period of occupation? If not, take a reading NOW and subtract the initial reading on your oldest bill (for both feeds if you have heures creuses). This will give you the total consumption for the whole term (6 years or whatever it is). You can then average out your annual consumption. Does the reading on the huge bill agree with the reading on the meter?

If the meter has been replaced you should have received an official form with the date of the replacement work and showing the old and new readings (usually zero for the new one).

As Idun has said, I always check my meters after they've been read, and on receipt of a bill. The water meter has been misread twice. The electricity is read by a transponder device, so any error is likely to be in the accounting system somewhere.

Sid,

To my knowledge, the meter has not been replaced.

I have taken readings for several days now and will do as you recommended. This is a great idea!

I thought, apparently wrongly, that electric bills had to be paid by prelevment.

I would prefer to read the meter myself and send it to EDF, and upon receipt of a bill, write a check to them. That way, I should always be aware of our usage.

Thanks Sid

Victor

[victor]

Clair,

At this time we receive a bill about 4 times a year. However, we pay by prevlevement a certain sum every month.

I seem to remember that for a while when we moved here from Sete that we were paying only when we received a bill. Then a French friend said it would be easier to pay the same amount each month. I naievely thought that this amount would be adjusted monthly to cover our actual usage.

I read the website you sent. I need to sign up with EDF for this.

Clair, once one has a monthly prelevement with the bank, is there anything one must do to stop it, With the system where one receives a bill 4 times a year, can you just write a check?

Michal- very tired and frustrated.

[NormanH]

1)The amount you pay each month has nothing to so with what you have used. It is about a tenth of what you might expect to pay in a year, and the last two months payments are normally adjusted in either direction after the meter is read.

It looks as if the estimate on which those payments were based was faulty. It is really only doable after a 'normal' year.

You can also ask for 2 monthly bills.

Personally I don't like giving utility companies access to my account. They can suddenly take a hefty amount out just at a difficult moment.

I work out what I expect to pay over the  year (As I said above around 2000€) and put 200€ into a savings account ready for the bill.

In that way they have to ask for their money instead of just being able to take it .

I had a similar problem with my water last year, when during a four month absence a great deal of water was lost in a leak.

The water board was about to take over 2500€ from my account, so I 'fait opposition' so they had no access, and they had to negotiate.

[victor]

Chancer,

Since living in Poussan all bills from EDF, to my knowledge, are automatically paid by our bank. In fact, come Monday our account will be near zero after they take out the 6,000 plus sum. I examined all our bank statements going back to 2006, which is when we moved to Poussan, and each month an amount was paid to EDF. However, given our consumption, the amounts are far too low.

From the bills I have, it appears that we generally received 4 bills a year. On the front of each bill it states whether the bill is based on consumation or is an estimate. In most years 2 bills were based on consumation and two were estimates. So it does appear that they NEVER charged us the actual amont that we should have paid. In fact, in 2010 and 2011 they sent a credit of almost 500.00 euros to our account.

We definitely need to find out how to pay the actual amount monthly by check ourselves. Now I need to find out how.

Chancer, thank you for your analysis.

Michal

[mint]

NEVER pay for anything by prélèvement, if you can possibly avoid it.  This doesn't, of course, apply if you are away from your house for long periods and live elsewhere as well.

We do have a prélèvement with EDF but that was set up years ago when we had our first house and was still living in the UK.  Strangely, enough, EDF were the ONLY people with whom we have had no problems, and that has included faulty readings that have been put right in our favour and having minimal amounts taken out of our account until disputes were resolved.

Thanks to Clair's advice, I am even managing NOT to pay SFR by direct debit but by 2-monthly cheques.  I certainly don't pay the water people or anyone else by DD.  This was after an initial and VERY hard lesson learnt after being ripped off by France Telecom who has taken money which we will never see again.

Also, if you are with a bank like CA (we used to be), they actually CHARGE you for cancelling a DD and do not make any attempt, unlike British banks, to get your money back from the beneficiery.

When we had our difficulty with EDF, I sent an email and someone rang me back within 48 hours, an engineer was sent out within a week or so and money returned to us soon after that.  I hope you are as lucky as we have been [:)]

[Patf]

I hope you get a refund eventually from that huge bill Victor/ Michal.

It seems the main lesson to learn from this sad story is to read your meters regularly and often, whether electric, gas or water.

And as others have said, be cautious about allowing prelevements.

[Clair]

To cancel your prélèvement, you must contact your bank, preferably in writing (registered post + proof of delivery) to tell them you wish to cancel the monthly prélèvement made by EDF.

Make sure you give them the correct payment details (these should show on your statements and on your EDF paperwork) and make sure you time your letter according to the current payment schedule.

In your letter, write that the request is "selon les articles 2003 et 2004 du code civil, qui dit qu’un mandat est révocable à tout moment." Send me a PM if you need help with this.

The bank will not charge for a cancellation, but do not use the words stop or opposition, as these may give a green light to the bank to charge for stopping (as opposed to cancelling) the debit.

Why a registered letter preferably to face-to-face?

Because when EDF next tries to take money from your account, the bank may let it go through, and unless you asked someone at the bank to stamp and sign a copy of your request, you won't have proof that you asked them to stop paying, and you'll be out of pocket.

Then call EDF on 09 69 32 15 15 (Mon to Sat 8h00 tp 21h00) and tell them you want to change your method of payment to cheque. They will probably come up with various reasons why you shouldn't, but stick to your guns as it's your right to do so.

Then you can register online with EDF, sign up with the Relevé Confiance and pay your bills online.

As far as payments are concerned, I pay my bills on their website with my bank card.

And it's 6 times a year (an invoice every 2 months.)

[Gardengirl]

Hope you get everything sorted out, Victor; it's a huge amount to have to pay.

We have a prelevement for paying EDF; every June they send a full bill for the year. If we haven't paid enough during the year they would raise the monthly sum we pay, but in fact it's never gone up, and for 4 years we've had a small refund paid into our account within 2 days. It all seems very efficient. We used to read the metervery regularly, but have become a bit lax about it recently. New year's resolution maybe.

[victor]

idun wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 13:58:

Yes, you have been able to give an internet reading for ages and always could do it over the phone, or write to them.

You also mention electricity for heating? that can be very very expensive depending on what it is in such a very big house as yours. We had a 120m² for a family of four, so I can visualise how much bigger yours is. Do you have a wood burner? I do realise which rooms you said you heat, but in such a big house a salon can be 'big' and not appear particularly so, and take a lot of heating.

idun,

You hit the nail on the head! Our salon which is also used to eat in when it is too cold or windy outside is 42m2. There is also a chimmy with an inset in there which we use every evening in the colder months.

For two people, we are realizing more and more that we have too big a house and too much land.

Thus,over two months ago, we had already decided to sell here and downsize. There comes a time in one's life when one realizes than having less is more. We are definitely at that point.

Victor