New laws regarding dangerous dogs

[raindog]

OK, unnatural is probably more the term. I know you're all dog lovers on this thread but i'm certain you know what i'm trying to get at. No need to split hairs. Some breeds have been developed simply to kill.

[Pommier]

I'm sure that many people consider Dobermanns to be attack dogs (that's the people who have never owned one!), but our dog was the most gentle, trustworthy creature you could meet. He loved all people and animals and would lie down to play with small dogs (or rabbits or cats....).

 

[Frenchie]

I am a dog lover and want to be sensible in my approach to that..

I know there must be good Rotties , for instance, but I am scared of them now, because we have lived a real hell in our neighbourhood because of one . He was sitting behind the fence of the neighbours' garden , and he was threatening..

The fence was hardly above a metre high..

  I told them in a friendly way that I was a bit scared of their dog, because I was afraid of him, and if he jumped, I wondered what could happen..

They said he was not agressive, it w<as in my imagination, I was not a dog lover etc etc.. [blink][:-))]

Once, I was coming home from work and it was late, he was there as usual.  And this time he jumped the fence and ran towards me; very upset apparently. I ran the few metres to my door and baged the door to his nose..

I saw them the next day and said how scared I had been. they said he was ok, he was declard in the mairie and fully chipped /vaccinated...

[:-))]   The man said " he s not bitten you , so stop winging " ... [blink]

Anyway things carried on like that for a few months, we were scared of going back home in the evening, a,nd always a look at the window before we went out..

They refused to put a higher fence, saying it was too expensive and they wanted to move..

Anyway, t<wo years after thay were still there.. and us frightened ..

When the dog ran after my son was evening and the boy came home terrorized, I called the mairie and they sent a " médiateur" who amitted there was a big problem but the law did not say anything about the height of fences .

 That s why I think a new law was inevitable, but not necessarily the one they are putting into practice now.

 

[Framboise]

If there is any breed of canine specifically bred to kill, then that would have to be the American Pitbull.  These poor wretches have been selectively interbred to make them vicious killing-machines, as either a "sporting interest" or the ultimate fashion accessory.  Man created them. 

It saddens me to see on the american animal rescue programmes the amount of these poor dogs that are seized from dreadful people who have them specifically for dog-fighting, or the other wretched creatures that are torn to shreds by a victorious winner of a contest.   This and rooster-fighting (had to change the word!)are prevalent in the USA unfortunately.

Other breeds served various jobs over the centuries, such as carriage hounds,  cattle guards or even emperor's lapdogs but the pitbull is a new phenomenom thats only purpose is to KILL.  Hence why they are outlawed and seized when discovered.

An old lady I knew had a rottweiler who was the daftest, soppiest old devil you could ever wish to meet, yet the burglars who got into her house didn't agree with that conclusion when, unfortunately for them, they had a close encounter of the teeth kind as they climbed through the window they had just broken to gain access.  First thing she knew  about her uninvited guests in the early hours was a huge commotion downstairs followed by a lot of shouting, then they ran away down the road at top speed clutching their injured backsides!!  Oddly enough she has not had any trouble since then..........................  [:)]

[Christine Animal]

Please don't think I am trying in any way to defend vicious dogs, on the contrary.  But to label any particular breed as nothing else than a killer is very dangerous.  You cannot generalise on any race, breed, or creed, whether it be humans or domestic animals.  This is something I feel very strongly about as it is unjust and unfair.  There are people in France who are considered by many in the same way when there are so many respectful and well educated (probably far better than us) amongst them, who are cerainly suffering from this reputation. 

Of course the Pitbull has been bred and used abusively, "these poor wretches" as you say so well Framboise, used and trained by dreadful people.  But they are not all killers, as not all hunting dogs are good at hunting.  Each living being is an individual, not some sort of "clone", even if they are each of a specific type.

I am in no way defending the Pitbull as a whole, they obviously can and are very dangerous in the wrong hands.  But many of them are also suffering greatly and are not all to blame.  Personally, I would wish that no more of them could be bred to avoid suffering all round.  The problem is that when they can no longer use Pitbulls, it's the turn of another breed to suffer.

Pit Bull viciously attacks Baby

 

My post is just trying to be fair and see both sides of the coin and not generalise.

 

[Framboise]

I am aware that not all pit-bulls are killers.  It is the OWNERS that make them that way in training them, goading them and using barbaric tactics to promote any of the instinct within the animal that exists.   Capturing that instinct, coupled with cruelty will make any dog less than friendly towards humans, let alone other dogs.

Dogs are man's Best Friend - its mankind who changes the parameters of that relationship, not the dogs.

[Frenchie]

I am really not so sure about that...

I love dogs and seeing them in rescues breaks my heart. But at the same time I love children and people in general, and I think something has to be done to prevent horrible accidents suchas the one that s taken place two days ago, involving a Rottweiler that had always been considered as balanced and sweet......

I have seen the jaws and teeth of these animals, and I don't want to think of the injuries they can make.....

I don't know if man is responsible, or if certain breeds have a natural agressivity " sleeping " in them  .

I own a labrador X husky, a big dog, 40 kilos , very very sociable, kind to all dogs and people ..

He would follow anyone...... So that I thought for a while that he was not attached to us. Now I ve understood it s his nature .

Yet, even if he is really a sweet dog, I am fully aware that if a small child was annoying him when he has an injury for instance, he MIGHT react and bite, if he is hurt. Not if he is in his normal condition. Of that I'm sure.

Anyway, a bite from a poodle or even a lab , even if it can hurt a lot, is certainly less destructive than the one of a rottie or a pittbull..

Now, getting my coat, ready to be stoned..........

 

[Athene]

Has anyone seen the Caesar Milan, 'Dog Whisperer' programmes? They are being screened on Sky3 each day at 18.00 UK time. He has a pack of dogs that he has rescued from being put down, some of which are Pit Bulls. He has one particular Pit Bull called Daddy who is huge but very gentle. The programmes show Caesar visiting people who have issues with their dogs and he helps them come to terms with these. In most of the cases, the problems lie in the owners who are not the pack leader in their dog's eyes and they pass on their negative energy to their dog. Now I am not an experienced dog owner but some of the techniques he uses have been really useful in training our sheepdog pupppy. More so than the classes in our local dog training school that involve you trudging up and down bent double with a treat 2 cm from your dog's nose in an attempt to learn him or her to walk to heel! So from my experience training schools here are not great but if they were manned by Caesar Milan devotees they would be most useful! Do they have these training schools in France?  If they were good, it could be that they were an obligation for all so called dangerous dog owners to enlist their dogs and for them to obtain a pass certificate in dog discipline.

[Christine Animal]

Unfortunately I can't see Caesar Milan's programmes, but have just seen bits on his site.  It's amazing and through this thread I have often thought of his "pack", a real pleasure to see and an example of what can be done.  Yes, it would be marvellous if there were such training schools in France, but it seems the proposed new law wants to make it obligatory for anyone with a "category" dog to have a training course.

http://www.30millionsdamis.fr/acces-special/actualites/detail/article/220-chiens-dangereux-mobilisation-des-principales-associations-de-protection-animale.html

 

[raindog]

Here are some statistics.....

De 1989 à 2007, 28 personnes ont été tuées par des chiens en France :

- 8 personnes tuées par des bergers allemands (ou type berger allemand)

- 1 personne tuée par un berger allemand + un rottweiler

- 1 personne tuée par un berger allemand + un beauceron

- 2 personnes tuées par des bullmastiffs

- 1 personne tuée par un akita inu

- 1 personne tuée par 4 dogues allemands

- 1 peronne tuée par un jagd terrier

- 1 personne tuée par 3 huskies sibériens

- 1 personne tuée par 1 pit bull + 4 american staffordshire terrier

- 1 personne tuée par un "berger belge"

- 1 personne tuée par un pit bull

- 1 personne tuée par un rottweiler

- 1 personne tuée par un american staffordshire terrier

- 1 personne tuée par 4 rottweilers

- 6 personnes tuées par des chiens de race non précisées.

Anyone know what a jagd terrier is?

[Christine Animal]

It's not a very bid dog Raindog, but very "hardy" !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdterrier

 

[raindog]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

It's not a very bid dog Raindog, but very "hardy" !

 

[/quote]

thanks christine - "hardy" eh? Sounds like that might be an understatement [:D]

[Framboise]

I would willingly take my dogs to a class if thats what it takes even though they are not dangerous dogs

Harley the DDB is very obedient and walks nicely to heel with me now, although when we first got her she was a bit skitty on lead. Ed the old boy is actually selectively deaf, ie. when it suits him to ignore me he will pretend to be hard of hearing, but regardless of that he can hear the biscuit jar from 20 feet away though, no worries there.  

I am Pack Leader to them of course which explains why they leapt to my defence when that mutt attacked us.  As Athene said, if they don't consider you to be Alpha One in the heirachy, you will never control them properly, be they a handbag-rat or GSD.

[Bilclarie]

[quote user="raindog"]Here are some statistics.....

De 1989 à 2007, 28 personnes ont été tuées par des chiens en France :

- 8 personnes tuées par des bergers allemands (ou type berger allemand)
- 1 personne tuée par un berger allemand + un rottweiler
- 1 personne tuée par un berger allemand + un beauceron
- 2 personnes tuées par des bullmastiffs
- 1 personne tuée par un akita inu
- 1 personne tuée par 4 dogues allemands
- 1 peronne tuée par un jagd terrier
- 1 personne tuée par 3 huskies sibériens
- 1 personne tuée par 1 pit bull + 4 american staffordshire terrier
- 1 personne tuée par un "berger belge"
- 1 personne tuée par un pit bull
- 1 personne tuée par un rottweiler
- 1 personne tuée par un american staffordshire terrier
- 1 personne tuée par 4 rottweilers
- 6 personnes tuées par des chiens de race non précisées.

Anyone know what a jagd terrier is?
[/quote]

 

All I know is that it's a small black and tan terrier also glad to see no Dobes on the above

[raindog]

Yes, loads of Alsations though....

[Christine Animal]

Framboise, it wasn't clear how I put it  It's not the dog who goes to a class, but the owner who should have a formation on being responsible for one.  Though they are proposing behaviour tests for the dogs.

" Art. L. 211-13-1. – I. – Le détenteur d'un chien mentionné à l'article L. 211-12 est tenu d'être titulaire d'une attestation d'aptitude sanctionnant une formation portant sur l'éducation et le comportement canins, ainsi que sur la prévention des accidents. "

But, as far as I can understand it, the animal protection organisations on the 30 Millions d'Amis link I gave on the previous page are asking the above text to be changed to the following, so that a formation is only necessary after the behaviour test on the dog and if the Maire considers it necessary.

Demandent la modification de l’article qui sera rédigé comme suit « Le détenteur d'un chien mentionné à l'article L. 211-12 est tenu de faire procéder à l’évaluation comportementale de son animal. A l’issue de celle-ci, le Maire pourra demander au propriétaire de l’animal d'être titulaire d'une attestation d'aptitude sanctionnant une formation portant sur l'éducation et le comportement canins, ainsi que sur la prévention des accidents, pour autant que l’évaluation comportementale du chien diagnostique un danger potentiel.

 

[Wendy]

Framboise, what about those people who buy a pitbull pup and then relegate it to a life tied to the clothesline in the back garden as a form of protection for the house? Two children in the UK in recent times have died as a result from attacks from 'pets' such as these. The owners were actually the grandmothers of the victims. Not 'goaders', not 'users of barbaric tactics' at all. Just owners of vicious unsociable creatures that's all. Why on earth would anyone want to own something called a 'pitbull' - bred for fighting and killing - as a pet is beyond me. Dog was 'mans best friend' at a time when man needed protection and food...these days we have the gun, the police and Tesco. I would happily cull all pitbull's, pups and dogs.

By the way, I have a pet crocodile; he has been raised as a family pet and just loves to be petted, crocodiles are very much mis-understood in my opinion...want to leave your kids with him? He is a family pet you know...

[Framboise]

I told you about the culture of pitbull owning in the USA and about the granny whose dog killed the baby - I do know what happenned.  And actually I have two lizards - not quite crocodiles but reptiles nevertheless.  My granddaughter loves them both and plays with them - they are both tame.

That detracts form my point.    The Granny is question took that dog in as a form of protection in her own home against burglars and other anti-social behaviours going on around her that she felt powerless against - the dog was doing what he felt was right, his inherent instinct is to protect his pack against the "intruder" which alas was a little baby.    Nobody in their right mind, which plainly a lot of people aren't, would consider taking such a dog into a family environment, a dog which incidentally was relegated to being shut into a room alone most of the time and only released when the house was empty.  He escaped and the rest is history yet its hardly any wonder he was crazy is it?   Indeed, that stupid woman is entirely at fault for the death of that little baby - the dog was HER weapon of choice - yet the question still remains why would anyone in full control of their faculties want a dog capable of such a thing?

And as for having "guns and police" to protect us.     Guns are prohibited of course (unless you are a Yardie) and you try to get the Police to sort out hoodies wrecking the bus-stop yet again or mugging old ladies on their way to Tescos at 9.30am.   It does not happen because they are too busy filling in a mountain of paperwork concerning some politically correct nonsense.   Look at the tragic case in the papers today of the father killed by three of them after he remonstrated with them for smashing his wife's car up on their driveway.  If anyone needed a pitbull it was he, the poor man, but then HE would have been in Court for protecting his family and property against the thugs.

Man created the Pitbull by interbreeding and matching different breeds of dog to create the ultimate fighting machine which was their prime purpose in the USA amongst a certain culture.  It became a hip-bling thing with the gangsta-rap exponents to own such a dog and now others are joining the crew, whether it be for show or action.   Why on earth would a woman of a certain age want a dog capable of such a thing if it were not for protection in a society she was afraid of?

The pitbull is a victim of circumstance as much as anything else - and NO I don't want one either - but  I repeat

I am equally unhappy about those little yappy snappy things that also attack children, ie the cocker spaniel that bit my granddaughter.   where is the outcry against them I wonder?