The Myth of French Education

[Sprogster]

I believe the term 'CHAVS', is meant to describe young unemployed persons with no money,who live on benefits, but somehow dress in designer tracksuits and Burberry baseball hats!

 

[letrangere]

my other 'pet' theory is that many French people have a different sense of 'self' too, but I find this rather hard to explain......

I was fascinated by this comment, Gay.  Worthy of a separate thread perhaps?  Yes, very difficult to articulate but I have an idea I know where you are coming from.  M

[Sarnia]

Sprogster, thank you very much for your reply; most enlightening and obviously I needed  educating about the word "chavs". Perhaps I got the terminology wrong, but you get the idea, perma-tan and designer sunnies...... very boring. Yes, we are very lucky in the Channel Islands in terms of education.  Everything about it is just great and brilliant.  Most children stay on for higher education in one way or another and we have a large contingent of bright-eyed youngsters who go on to Oxford and Cambridge.  I would not consider educating a child in the UK, especially the inner-cities  - and feel very sorry for those people who do.  We are just lucky that our private school system here is cheap - I have three children in this sort of education at the moment. 

Guernsey has changed for the worst.   Education aside, everything here is judged on what people have, where they live, how much they earn, what they drive.  Perhaps I am yearning for a better way of life - and hope that my son will grow up realising that happiness is not all about a 4 wheel drive and a job in the finance industry.  That is why France beckons us - we hope for a more simpler existence. 

Sprogster, where are your children currently being educated? 

 

[Sarnia]

Sprogster, sorry I have just re-read your post and you have already stated where your kids were educated - so sorry about that!

On a certain point however you are incorrect, the Channel Islands are indeed part of the UK. 

[GRT17]

[quote]Sprogster, sorry I have just re-read your post and you have already stated where your kids were educated - so sorry about that! On a certain point however you are incorrect, the Channel Islands are i...[/quote]

"On a certain point however you are incorrect, the Channel Islands are indeed part of the UK. "

Sarnia, aren't the Channel Islands like I.O.M. and therefore part of the British Isles but not included with U.K. and N.I. ?

Gill

 

[Teamedup]

Chavs. Rich and famous chavs include Jordan, no surprise there then, Wayne Rooney and girlfriend, the Beckhams, bien sûr, that woman from eastenders who lost her septum, she is the original burberry chav and Britney Spears.

None of these come as a surprise, do they?

[Russethouse]

I think the confusion comes because the Channel Islands are part of the British Isles but not part of the EU. ( I hope thats right because I don't add VAT to invoices that go there ?)

Is that correct Sarnia ?

[Sarnia]

Russethouse - you have got it in one really.  We have "historic" links to France and some people would like us to be French, although we did not elect to be part of the EU.  We are "separate" from the UK - except we are part of them too...... we are governed by the States of Guernsey, with elected members of our Parliament, and have different laws - but apparently bear aliegance to the Queen.  There is added confusion, because "real" Guerns; i.e. those with Guernsey born parents are not able to seek employment etc in the EU - whereas although I was born in the CI I can seek employment anywhere because of UK parentage.  We do not pay VAT - Income Tax is still 20%, average pay is around the £21-27k mark, £18-21k being the average young typists pay; first time buyers property is around the £250k mark.

[Sprogster]

Sarnia

The Channel Islands are part of the British Isles, but not the United Kingdom.

The UK are the parts of the British Isles that are governed by the UK Parliament at Westminster.

The Channel Islands are self governing and therefore like the, Isle of Man I believe, are not part of the UK.

The Channel Islands are a Crown peculiarity, in that historically they were part of Normandy. But when Normandy and England separated 800 years ago, the Feudal seigneurs in the Channel Islands decided to continue their loyalty to the English monarch.

To this day The Queen, is sometimes toasted at formal dinners in the C.I as 'Our Duke'. (As in Duke of Normandy.)

[GRT17]

[quote]Sarnia The Channel Islands are part of the British Isles, but not the United Kingdom. The UK are the parts of the British Isles that are governed by the UK Parliament at Westminster. The Channel I...[/quote]

Exactement Sprogster!

 

Gill

[Deby]

Hello Everyone, thanks for your comments in this interesting topic.  First chance I have had to take time and read everyone's comments.

TU, the school in question is Houille Blanche, the teacher giving my friends' son a hard time, is reknowned for his tyrannical methods and unfortunately nothing is never done. Extremely difficult to get rid of a teacher which is heading towards retirement!

I feel as I am between two worlds in France, the world of Grenoble which is a small city and the english speaking community which is far removed from the B&B, Gite, Estate Agent and Artisan community here in the Charente-Maritime. The community in Grenoble is made up of IT, Engineers and Scientists and respective spouses.  However, the underlying experiences of Education problems remains the same.  I know of a couple of families of have lived in GNB for 20 years and brought up their families through the French system both families were frustrated and ended sending the kids to UK higher education institutions.  Some of my friends now are experiencing difficulties with the system and some and just feeling it.  The problem is we do compare our foreign education to the French and we are right too -  based on what we see today.  I see how hard the french children have to work - their childhood/teenage years almost stolen away and then for what, some really pathetic menial job at the end.

This new world of faire de Gite is very different for me and I see lots of UK families coming to France with life changing aspirations of everything French is better.  What little I know of the Education system makes me very nervous for my childrens' future and they were born here.  French education is different and it may well suit some but it certainly does not suit me.  I simply want my children to be happy, healthy, think for themselves and have a few choices at the end of the day.  Two of those criteria can be obtained in France but the other two cannot.  There is my dilemma for now!

Deby

[Jo53]

French education is different and it may well suit some but it certainly does not suit me.  I simply want my children to be happy, healthy, think for themselves and have a few choices at the end of the day.  Two of those criteria can be obtained in France but the other two cannot.  There is my dilemma for now!

You've summed up pretty accurately the way I feel. My children are of a similar age to yours, I believe (CP and maternelle). Of course things may turn out fine; we will not know until the children work their way further through the system. The additional worry for me is that they may be made unhappy by an education system that seems to revolve around the threat of failure, and that does not provide praise and encouragement. Then that's another of your criteria gone! I think the French are basically a morose people; is that because of their education system, or does the system reflect the character?

Jo

[SaligoBay]

<<I think the French are basically a morose people; is that because of their education system, or does the system reflect the character?>>

But I see where you're coming from, Jo.  The education system certainly teaches them very early on that Life is Hard, so they might as well just get used to it now. 

I don't hear French adults expressing any happy memories of their schooldays.  And when you think that even the 20-somethings have tales to tell of regular "baffes" from their teachers and parents, maybe it's no wonder!

I think TeamedUp has quoted the date of the last major change in the French education system?   Something like 1890, I think.    Help, TeamedUp, I don't want to get you all wrong!

[Ormx]

"the French are basically a morose people" - No wonder they're protesting in Brittany against the Brits with attitudes like that.

Marcel Pagnol recites a delightful account of school life in several of his novels, which, although hard, gave a great sense of camaraderie and he turned out alright ...

 

[SaligoBay]

Right, there's one out of 62 million.......

[Dick Smith]

There were less, then, as France had lost Alsace and Lorraine (and gods were they morose about that).

For a really depressing school story try Alphonse Daudet's 'La Dernière Classe'

It's at

http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/resource/france/annexe/classe.html

To go back to an earlier stage of this discussion, could it be that the dual system which exists in France explains a fairly sterile education for the majority, whilst those who later become original thinkers have been selected for the Grandes Ecoles? I don't think anywhere else in Europe separates its brightest students from the rest in such a brutal manner, or with such single-minded purpose of turning them into leaders of industry, high level civil servants etc. It's certainly the opposite of the UK where the push is always to get more and more 'non-traditional' students into Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE etc.

Also - French educational thinkers are quite wedded to the idea that everyone progresses through the same stages at about the same pace, so there is no advantage in treating them individually, again the opposite of current thinking in the UK.

[Pangur]

The French dual system? Dick, surely the UK does the same to a large degree - 30% of UK students do not go on to do A levels.  There's not a level playing field in the UK either,  brighter (and in general, more well off) students are being separated from the others at quite a young age there too.  And universities all over the world mouth off about trying to increase participation levels of students from ethnic minorities / lower socio economic backgrounds, it's not just a British thing.  The mainstream UK job market may be very meritocratic - the educational system certainly is not.  Where do the UK captains of industry and policitans come from?  Surely Oxbridge and the Russell group are a type of Grande Ecole, Whitehall is riddled with it.

And as for individual student paces - all very well in theory but how do you manage a classroom with 30 different paces?  British teachers are drowning in lesson plans and paperwork to try and achieve this and frankly, it is unworkable, especially in one of the many schools where discipline is a serious problem.

Parents on this forum talk about 'independent thinking' - that's all very well, but you also have to be able to read, write and analyse and the news from the UK is that the educational system is churning out lots of illiterates.  Fantastic having enthusiastic, positive thinkers, - but if they haven't good a sound educational background, that is going to hamper them enormously.  Life can be hard and failure is something we all have to get used to and, if treated the right way, something we can learn from.  What are children going to learn if they constantly win?  Sure, being battered down is not the way to go, but parents also have to instill confidence and get up and go into their kids - it's not just a school's job.

Digby Jones, head of the CBI is contantly telling us how British young people do not have basic skills http://education.guardian.co.uk/1419education/story/0,15147,1423690,00.htm

And teachers in the UK want to scrap the current system, which is doing few any favours http://education.guardian.co.uk/1419education/story/0,15147,1423733,00.html and perpetuates the dual system which some believe only exists in France.

It's not all roses back in the UK and that while the French system may educate them in a verydifferent way, it doesn't mean they won't receive a sound education.  There are holes in all systems - it sounds like both countries need to take a bit of advice from each other. 

[Dick Smith]

I couldn't agree more - but in the UK we do have a commitment to spread the gravy around a bit more.

[Cjb]

"Churning out illiterates"

Exactly the same happens in France, as has recently been reported here.

 The UK government, Local Education Authorities and Teachers have made a huge commitment to solving this problem, and I for one, as a teacher, have full faith in the methods being used in order to achieve that. UK teachers have received a great deal of training and support in order to further aid this process.

Don't be mistaken into thinking that the rigour of the French education system results in them producing more literate kids than in the UK. The figures speak for themselves!!

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

To be well rounded and able to hold down a worth while job not just paper pushing in the public sector and to produce and not just manage in the private sector why should it take ****amount of years at tax payer expense where is the benefit to the country(any country),push up the pension age and send kids to school longer is the the new "thing"and for what? More plumbers mechanics painters plasterers are the worker that are needed.Why should any one have 12 weeks a year holidays to spend in their second home when the real worker only have 3/4weeks a year?Change the school year so that kids get a continual education year round and not a six week break in learning,and for most of the kids the boredom that goes with it.

[Teamedup]

You may be able to gave the geese down in the SW but it doesn't work with school children.

Maybe the holidays could be done a bit better, but kids do need them.

[Johndeb]

Someone earlier stated that they're surprised that people expect a high standard of education from the French system.  However, along with health, these are the main benchmarks set by soon to be ex pats, or in ex pat focused books and magazines on the UK v's France.

It's actually quite refreshing to hear the other side and accept that no one system is perfect.

Personally I've always believed that should a certain area be of great relevance to you, then you research it to death and make an educated (excuse the pun!) decision.  However, this hasn't been helped over recent years with the detrimental press the UK system is getting versus the French.  Where, other than in France (and then not as widely as in the UK about the UK system) do you hear that the education system is not perfect for all?  But which one ever is - we're all unique, after all

For those parents that worry that every year is critical, please also know that I have a nephew who is dyslexic and although it was flagged up early in the UK, the schools just didn't have the resource to give him the extra attention he required.  He bumbled through the first 8-9 years or so with leaning very little but knuckled down at the crucial time and is now at university. 

Also, I for one know how hard it is to learn a foreign language as an adult and that these kids will be bilingual regardless of anything else.  Can anyone honestly remember what they leant at school other than the ability to learn, oh and that they did  pythagerous therum!!! (probably spelt wrong - not one of my better subjects!!!)

Good luck to all the parents out there

Deb

 

 

[anne123anne123]

hi,

my experiences are so different from what I read here! My boys are 9 and 10, we moved to france when they were 2 and 3, so they've always been in the french schoolsystem. I agree, it's rigid, but my boys thrive on it. They love going to school and 'work' (their words). Now and then they come across a teacher that's hard work, but they realize that will happen in 'real' life as well, so they deal with it.

I grew up in belgium, where the system is similar. The one flaw I can see is that the system is geared toward the 'middle'. If your child is exceptionally bright or very very slow, the french system doesn't do much for you.

In this case, I'm extremely pleased with our local village school and the quqlity of teaching.