The Myth of French Education

[Deby]

As you probably know the education section is one which I always follow. 

As I am back in Grenoble, today, I caught up on an old friend who has lived in France for 15 years, married to a Frenchman and has 3 boys, the eldest of which is in CP.  She recently took him out of the International School here because his teacher as my friend stated 'is something out of the 1900's' gave her child such a hard time.  The teacher has turned her child into a shivering wreck. She complained, sought advice (believe me she is not one to rock the boat) and failed to acheive any support from the school even though the teacher in question is reknowned for his Dickensian approach.

The childs' new school is slightly better, but tell her her child is failing because he does not write correctly, he forgets to cross his 'T's and dot his 'I's.  This boy has been writng at home since he was four and as a result the way he writes the word 'Bien' is deemed as wrong because it does not follow the french handwriting rules.  His mother has explained that he writes like her and surely what he writes and is understood is correct enough!  When the dictation of poetry comes out again her son fails miserably and is told he is not bright and is failing because he is not acheiving. 

This is how it is in schools in France.

She is considering returning to the UK as she knows it is a constant battle, my friend is at her wits end as she knows there is nothing wrong with her son but the system here tells her that there is.

The reason for this post is that there is some myth here in France that their Education system is better than the UK.  Why this myth exists I do not know.  I post just to make people aware that when you move to France take off the tinted glasses and think about this before you move.  For some it is successful, but for others it is not.  I am still growing with this system myself but just lately everywhere I turn I see very disgruntled non-french folk getting very frustrated and angered by this system who have genuine concerns for their children.

Deby

[Sprogster]

You are not alone in your concerns as they seem to be shared by the French government!

I read today in the newspapers that the French Government are pushing for fundamental reforms, as they state there are to many middle school students without adequate skill sets for the modern world.

They are quoting as a better example the UK system in offering a broader range of opportunities through greater flexibility!

 

[Izz.]

I am sorry to say but i dont think you fully understand what is going to happen with the education in France if this government gets away with what Fillon and his mates have decided to do. Perhaps we dont read the same papers, try Le Monde and Liberation they will give you a fuller information. Deby, i agree with the content of your message for having lived it through with my 14 year old son a year and a half ago. The system is rigid, pompously dogmatic although every year statistics show that it is not working for a lot of children. Despite that, teachers seem to think that they know it all, probably because the system molded them. I fail to understand how important cursive writing is in principle apart from the fact that you can write faster when used to it. Every reading material that we buy is not printed in cursive letters, so that it can be read by all. In my opinion another pretention from the French culture deep rooted in its stupid and pedantic approach to things. I am a French national and dont dislike what is part of my culture but sometimes get very irritated and frustrated by it. Having spent twenty years in Britain, qualified as a German and French teacher i have never met people with such attitude as the French. You don't need to be ex-patr. to feel and see the problems. By the way, we have lived here now for two years and still feel like strangers. My daughter who is now in CP is doing well but i find myself fighting with her teacher who fails to understand the meaning of passive language that takes place well before children speak read and write although it seems obvious to me that spending her first five years in Britain makes a difference to her acquisition of language when you compare her to all other children in her class. Sometimes i feel so annoyed by it, i cant begin to tell you! Bon courage!

[Teamedup]

And my concerns voiced on here were never just about 'me'. As someone interested in education, who values education, it used to break my heart to see what was happening to children I knew were capable and had potential. French children.

Reforms, I don't trust them either.  

 

Thanks for the post Deby. The Myth unfortunately is alive and well in the UK. The source of such myths and urban legends, I suppose, we will never know.

 

 

[Mistral]

Reforms, I don't trust them either.

Sad, but true, every new minister seems to feel the need to have his reform, the teachers' unions feel the need to complain; and then the whole thing gets so watered down in the aplication and lack of funds that it doesn't really change anything.

[BJSLIV]

But its precisely that style of education that is attractive for many UK parents moving to France.

A bit like a Grammar School in the Sixties. Teacher at the front, children showing respect, answers that are either right or wrong etc etc.

Unfortunately if they subsequently find that it doesn't suit their child.........

Especially when even a bright child will find it hard catching up in  a foreign language..........

Especially if they have already been spoilt by the British system of rewarding "effort" rather than results........

I have "fond memories" of the humiliations handed out to our class "Thicko" (Teachers Words) in the top stream of a selective school. Just because he could not  keep up with the rest of the class.  

"Pour Encourager Les Autres" I suppose.

[Teamedup]

Do they really think that?

What is going on, if that is the case, then these parents are even more ignorant than I imagined. A complete lack of knowledge of the french system and obviously a complete lack of knowledge of how the grammar school worked in the 1960's too.

[Battypuss]

I understand they are phasing out cursive script in favour of something simpler. When, though? I don't know...

[chicfille]

The most agonising thing for me about education here is that children are only considered to be achieving if they work within the rigid framework set by the system.

Bright pupils think they are succeeding because they get good marks (for regurgitating rote-learned facts, never for inspired thinking). The less acadamic get bad marks and are branded as failures right from the start. Any anyone who knows anything about the child's psyche knows that children almost invariably become what their parents/teachers constantly describe them as. No account is taken of other talents (sporting, artistic, etc) or of individual quirks.

Far from being a partnership with the school, my children's education sometimes feels like a battle between me and them because the system imposes such unnecessary and rigid constraints on even the youngest children.

Reforms are way overdue, but as you are all saying, the system is almost unreformable.

[Cjb]

If the reform process is anything like the one that took place in the UK, it will be a long, painful and drawn-out process, but it'll be worth it.

The real battle is to change a deeply entrenched culture. One that is incredibly stubborn and places the rights of the teacher at its very centre.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that expectations are low in UK schools. Expectations are very high, the key difference is that those high expectations apply to both the children and their teachers.

Those that are still teaching in the UK have had no choice but to continually push to improve standards, which at times has meant taking the burden of the stress upon themselves, rather than passing it on to their students.

"Rewarding the Thicko" (I accept that these are the teachers words, not the posters) is a very simplistic example of what is known as positive behavioural reinforcement, which aims to catch children being good and reward their efforts and achievements relative to their ability. If this proves to be the catalyst for a growing sense of self-belief and a subsequent thirst for knowledge and education (which isn't battered and bruised into submission by the constant fear of failure lurking around every corner) then surely it has to be a good thing. Education has no time limits, unless we impose them upon others or ourselves.

The goal of education is not a string of top results at 16, 18 or 21, rather a sense of its value and a lifelong love of learning. One simply need look at the thousands of mature students who consistently achieve firsts and 2:1's from UK universities and the number of posters on this site, who despite learning little french at school, have gone on to learn the language to a level that they never imagined to be possible, to realise that the job of a school is merely to give us a good start on the long journey that is education.

[chicfille]

Here, here, well said.

As a parent, it's my children's natural curiosity and questioning that I want their schooling to foster and develop. If they crush that by not listening when they ask 'why?', they will not, in my opinion, be well-educated, however many questions they may be able to get right at Trivial Pursuit!

Noticing and giving sincere praise when a "thicko" tries his best or gets something right, giving measured praise and further challenges to the bright ones - those are methods that I saw in use in the UK and that keep children interested long-term. The French penchant for shouting, scaring or humiliating children into learning does the opposite.

I for one was more than happy with the way my children were being educated in the UK, and fully intend to return there as soon as my French husband's job allows.

 

[Caroline 34]

I'm afraid I was seduced by the info in UK on french schools and was convinced my kids, then 7 and 9, would be much better off in French schools.  I have learned a lot in the last 2 years, and would agree with pretty much most of the comments made on french schools.  They are endorsed by a friend of mine, a CM2 teacher, who swears she would never send her children to french public schools, and hates having to teach in ways that she doesnt agree with.  The worst for her is that poor results are deemed the child's fault and not the teacher's.   Indeed she is going to train as a Montessori teacher as she believes their methods are much better suited to embracing all children and encouraging them to discover the world around them.

So to parents just moved or planning to move to France - please look up alternatives to the local schools - with Montessori, or Steiner for example.  Also in the South, there are the Calendrata, schools bilingual french and occitan.  They seem to have a very creative approach, and would suit kids of 4, to 6 already confident in french. 

Sadly we are moving next month back to UK.  My son, aged 9 now has had a very hard time here.  He was told requently that he is a failure.  He has been put down 2 years, and finds the emphasis on copying texts, learning poems and dictation very hard.  The school's answer is that he has a psychological problem, and is seeing the CMPP educational psych, who says that is above average intelligence, lively, friendly, no evidence of psychological problems, only he doesnt like the work he is expected to do in school. 

My daughter on the the other hand, in the 6e, her proper year, is top in her class, deleguee de classe, and finds the work - copying and learning for tests - boring and uninspiring.  I know that the schools in UK will suit them much better.  I have no regrets on having come here, tho.  The kids have had a wonderful time here, learned a lot, and are now pretty well bilingual.

To echo those with more experience and eloquence than me (and grammer!), I would say to parents coming over with children, please find out as much as you can about the schools in your area.  Is there anyone home-tutoring here?  That might be an alternative, especially where there are a few families with similar aged kids.

Good luck to all families coming out here.  And good luck to those like us returning to UK.

Caroline

[Miki]

From the first posting by the Duchess down to the one above, I agree with it all.

Nothing new there then, as I believe that the French system is nowhere near as good as people back in the UK believe it to be. And as has been said here many times, it is easy to believe early years in Primaire are what it will always be like, balmy days, kids learning to speak French quickly and all is wonderful.

To add to the problems children have at school, one fairly difficult problem for the kids, is that many parents cannot comprehend what the homework or even school is actually about. Indeed many kids after a while (around a year) are embarassed by their parents inability to speak much French, especially in front of their friends or at the school. I know some parents do learn or indeed improve their already good language skills to speak at a decent level Cjb, as you rightly say but we know some that after 3 to 4 years still cannot speak more than a simple sentence and some even after 10 years. Sad but sorry, quite true.

I and others have been slaughtered for telling how it really is for many, notice I say many and not totally ALL but I have to say again, I personally do not know any kid that has done the full journey through education here and gone on to gain a good job but as I also said, there is not yet much of a track record with members on here who can speak about that.  I do blame it on how the whole work and education system ticks over and led by succesive governments who neither try or more likely cannot change the very way it all slowly grinds over in the same draconian manner.

I do feel (hopefully more than with any certainty !) though, that one day someone will realise that unless things change in the way education is taught in France, it will eventually be the work place that will suffer badly in the modern world. Even today, the onslaught of China and other emerging nations are putting severe pressure on French manufacturers (and others of course) and the severe restrictions that strangulate small companies here added indeed to the students having to go through such rigmarole to get even the most menial job, will further stifle the French, until it either just grinds on and gets nowhere or perhaps until eventually a strong governement decides to grab the bull by the horns and change it all from top to bottom.

Impossible ? well like the NHS in the UK, in theory wonderful but with so much to do and with so many people involved, it is almost impossible to manage, regardless of what poiliticans or  oppositions say ought to  be done.

 

 

[Tourangelle]

Surely, though, to come back to Deby's original point, her friend's son is suffering in his new school from having been sent to an international school and then changing.  Presumably he never had the opportunity to learn to write in the French way?  How many problems with French schools are more from the difference between two systems (neither of which are perfect, look at the stress small kids are under with the testing that has gone on in British schools) and people's expectation that the only difficulty is going to be the language? 

I was puzzled by the title of this post, I've never heard this so called myth that French education is brilliant.  I've certainly heard the one about how much better we'd all be if we had done a bac type exam, but nobody has ever suggested to me that primary education, for example, is fantastic, not even French people.  I have four friends here that have had the opportunity to spend time at British universities, and they all prefer them to the French.  Mostly for the social life, admittedly, but, hey, that's education too. 

[chicfille]

[quote]I'm afraid I was seduced by the info in UK on french schools and was convinced my kids, then 7 and 9, would be much better off in French schools. I have learned a lot in the last 2 years, and would a...[/quote]

So to parents just moved or planning to move to France - please look up alternatives to the local schools - with Montessori, or Steiner for example. 

Caroline - this is exactly what we did. After an unhappy early experience at two French state maternelles followed by a couple of good years back in the UK I was after something better for my children when we had to come back here. We chose a Montessori school because we thought it would be less of a shock for them.

In some ways we were right because their personalised, non-competitive approach to teaching has made it easier for the older one particularly to improve her French and work on her weak points without the stigma of constant low marks and being bottom of the class.

However, they have to follow the national curriculum as well as the Montessori-recommended learning so it is very hard work. The pressure to work ever harder and achieve more is still there which my children have found difficult to handle and I have had to approach their teachers several times to sort various issues out. The older one also gets a lot of homework and does very little other than academic work, no art of any kind, no creative writing and little sport, all of which I believe contribute enormously to a good primary education. 

So although the teaching methods are better and have undoubtedly made the transition easier, the state intrudes too much into the school and it falls is a long way short of the expectations I had for it.

 

[Teamedup]

I suppose it is what you call a myth isn't it. I would call it a myth, because it now seems to be in the collective psyche that it is good in France and the education is good.

When I am back....... "I live in France". "Lucky you, must be wonderful"........ "Ah do you know France?????".......puzzled looks by me, then by them, hesitation usually, "well, no....... not really" followed by, one of the following that they dream to live in France, or that they have had a great holiday in France or even did a day trip to Boulogne or they see it on the telly. And for me the 'lucky you' is the collective psyche. And education well everyone knows it is better......... in spite of knowing nothing about it.

I don't know which international school Deby's friends child went to, some of them in Grenoble do 'french' writing. I know people who have not kept their kids in international schools in Grenoble too. We are talking little kids here. IF the new school was told that the child had been to school X and so and such a handwriting was done there, if by chance it was different to french norms, then couldn't the teacher just be nice enough to show the child how to do the stuff, which I must add, my grandmother born in the early 1880's used to do. It isn't rocket science.

This perhaps is what you get when people are taken on to teach simply when they can pass exams, then civil service exams, but not necessarily how to teach, or even why to teach.......fortunately some good teachers do get through that process, but not enough.

[Cjb]

The International School System can and does work very well if:

a) It's an accredited school (ECIS etc....) who employ fully qualified staff.

b) Children of English speaking parents have had 1 or 2 years in the French system in order to bring their french up to scratch (at my school they have as many French language lessons as English language).

c) You can afford the fees*!! In comparison to Private School fees in the UK they are relatively cheap, but how many of us are earning what we did in the UK.

*Some state schools do have International Sections.

d) Your children aren't isolated from french society outside of school e.g. attending extra-curricular clubs, activities etc.... near to where they live that enable them to further improve their french and to further integrate.

 

My schools has a great many french students, who do extremely well within such a system.

 

[Ormx]

What a bad picture you all paint!

I'm sure you all have had bad experiences, or heard some things second hand, and you use these to compare what would have been had you stayed in the UK. I agree that the French system is not perfect. My OH is French and he has many criticisms too, but his level of general education is superb. For someone who specialised in math/science for his bac he has also a great knowledge of literature, language etc. and some knowledge of philosophy etc...

Many people are considering the move to France and read this forum, like the truth the whole truth and nothing but... I think you all want to encourage people to seriously consider education before moving to France, that's fine, but from reading the above the message seems to be "don't move with young children".

Before I came her I read threads such as this and suddenly feared my children would sit for 1 year in silence, unable to speak French. 5 months into their first year at maternelle and they LOVE IT and BEG me to be allowed to stay in the after school club. Their French is coming on very well. Everybody's experience is different.

Be aware that education in France is not PERFECT. THen stop comparing it to the UK.

Be positive about what they are taught here. I for one think the "joined-up writing" is something that I missed out on in Ireland as it was no longer taught in the 70s in Ireland. My hand-writing is apalling. I hope my children will learn to write like their father.

Children who receive negative messages from their parents will certainly rebel against the system.

[chicfille]

The issue here isn't really whether or not your children will enjoy school day-to-day, as plenty of British ex-pat kids do (including mine most of the time), especially the youngest ones as they pick up the language so much more quickly than older ones and have little memory of anything else. The methods and approach that people are criticising here are more applicable at primary and secondary levels than maternelle. The question is what kind of education they will get at the end of it.

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that people shouldn't make a permanent and irreversible move to France exclusively, or even mainly, to get a good education for their children, because the system isn't all it's cracked up to be. It might seem better to families who have found weaknesses in the UK system, but it has plenty of serious failings of its own which might only become apparent after several months or years.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]The issue here isn't really whether or not your children will enjoy school day-to-day, as plenty of British ex-pat kids do (including mine most of the time), especially the youngest ones as they pick ...[/quote]

I'm really surprised by this,  and I don't mean to sound critical of anybody, but are there really people out there who came from Britain to France so that their children would have a better education?

Jane

[Battypuss]

Yes, there's at least one person who did precisely that (among many other reasons); ME.

Faced with the local schools in South East London, after my daughter having ben privately educated to that point, I was horrified. I knew her friends of course, all local, all at the schools and used to do their homework with them as they and their parents were patently incapable of doing it themselves. I ended up with a small, free after-school school for which I received no thanks apart from that of the kids who actually wanted to learn. Their parents couldn't have given a *hit. Finally, in utter desparation, I homeschooled my daughter for two years, then moved to France.

This was not a case of long term planning.

Arriving age 8, daughter got********d into the local primary, speaking not a word of French. She survived, as did her two sisters, following ten years behind.

French Education is not perfect. Nor is anyone's elses.

[Tourangelle]

That's an interesting answer, you seem to be saying it was a concern about the short falls of British education rather than a specific desire to have your children educated in France.  As such you present a contrast with several other posters who seem to think Britain is better.  Can I be nosey and ask if you are happy with the education your children have had here?

[Miki]

[quote]I'm really surprised by this, and I don't mean to sound critical of anybody, but are there really people out there who came from Britain to France so that their children would have a better educat...[/quote]

Well judging by the number of posts over the last 2 years by members with children that have often stated that as one of the reasons for coming here. When I have spoken with some of the Brits locally in different regions, they have also often expressed the same message.

So to be honest and again like you, no offence meant but, why you feel surprised about it, is a shock to me as well !

 

[Patf]

From what I've read and heard from friends here with children of school age the biggest worry about eduction in UK was the timid, feeble approach to discipline. Teachers there have gradually had most of their authority eroded and lost most acceptable sanctions. They are afraid to upset parents who take the side of their children against the school. Litigation is always a possibility. Those parents who decided to move to France thought french schools had stricter discipline and would be more orderly. The other side of the subject, style of teaching etc is  more abstract and not apparent immediately.Separate topic, what are these changes from ?Fillon which the students were demonstrating against last week? Pat.

[Cjb]

[quote]Yes, there's at least one person who did precisely that (among many other reasons); ME.Faced with the local schools in South East London, after my daughter having ben privately educated to that point,...[/quote]

What a bad picture you all paint!

In reply to Ormx, I also have a french partner, who went right the way through the french education system before switching to the UK to complete her degree. The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not simply viewing this through British eyes.

My wife's family are all well educated: doctors, teachers, investment banking etc.... and they are all disgruntled with the French System. Her eldest brother is currently studying for his MBA in Chicago and her younger brother is having a hard time of it at Lycée, after having been put forward a year at Primary school and then having to retake première (Why couldn't they have simply left him where he was in the first place? He's a bright student who now feels like a failure!!)

Her Grandfather was a schools inspector and immediately suggested that our children would be better off opting for an International Education. Just because somebody views something in a negative way does not mean that they are merely comparing it with the UK. We have the advantage of experiencing the UK (State and Private), French (State and private) and International Systems and therefore feel reasonably well qualified to arrive at an opinion on this matter.

There is a big difference between filling one's head with knowledge and learning how to use and apply that knowledge. Both my wife and her brother feel that it was only once they had left the french system that they were given the chance to develop the latter of the two.

P.S Don't know why that quote appears at the top of this post??