Home education

[bigjimbishop]

I struggle with confidence and patience as I'm sure most home ed people do so thats where a network is essential to have support and not get isolated which was the original question from teamedup.

To answer Saligobay, I was made redundant in the UK 2002 and with an ever increasing interest only mortgage. I soon became a lone-parent as well with a 2 yr old.

In fact noone would give me a new mortgage with no "real" job and the nearest place I could buy a place for cash was Burgundy.

I guess I could have got a job in a call centre or a shop but then I had the kid to consider (mortgage, nursury fees) I was stuck in an impossible situation unable to earn enough to live.

I had £35000 capital tied up in the house which is privilege but useless in the UK for unwaged parent so I jumped ship.

I think it's more lucky timing than privilege as the housing market went so crazy in 2004.

I spent every penny buying this grotty cottage and now scrape together what I can gardening and gigging in bars.

So I do work but it's much more modest and fun than the old life oh yeah and Bourgogne is much prettier than Leicester city.

So I hope you can find a way to be lucky too and get away from the mortgage coz thats the killer....bloody banks.

[jorja]

[quote]Jim - I'm not looking for a fight! I think you are looking at this from a different direction from me. I wouldn't put down what you are doing, but it often the 'alternative' is in danger of becoming s...[/quote]

Hi Dicksmith

You were asking about research on HE. I have recently reviewed a book 'Educating children at home' by Alan Thomas. I believe it is definitely unbiased as it shows both sides - the good and the bad. You may find it interesting. (ISBN:0-8264-5205-1)

regards

georgia

[jorja]

[quote]Fascinating! Dick, as always, erudite and coherent (I admire that, because I can't do it myself!). But there must be better arguments for home-schooling than the ones BJB is quoting, surely? In no...[/quote]

may i say that as a middle-class??, used-to-be vegetarian and definite carob-hater i think you are rather rude and extremely narrow minded.

we home educated our two girls because we think it is the best way to raise them. they have french friends of all ages and after seven months of living here are making very good progress with the language and are both able to hold a reasonable conversation on their own.

we are not privileged in anyway. we purposefully have made our life much more simple so that we can HE. we don't live mortgage free, we rent! my husband and i work very hard to make it work here and we spend lots of time with our girls. we are not constricted by school timetables so take advantage of the many opportunities on offer in our region and further afield.

i know if you met my daughters and some of the friends we have in the UK that HE you would have to change your opinions. unfortunately those of us who choose to take the 'road less travelled' often make other people uncomfortable. usually because people like you want to pidgeon-hole us, and you know what, we don't fit in any specific 'hole'. we are proud to be thinking for ourselves and not always going with the flow.

i had a wonderful compliment given to me the other day by some french friends who are in their mid-thirties and expecting their 1st baby in a few months. they said that the behaviour, education and social skills of my daughters have made them decide that they will teach their child at home. i don't think that as HEing parents there can be a better compliment than that, do you? they said they were impressed by my 13yr old's thirst for learning, and by the way she is no great swot, she just likes to know about things.

we do drive a 4x4......an old range rover!!!

 

[SaligoBay]

may i say that as a middle-class??, used-to-be vegetarian and definite carob-hater i think you are rather rude and extremely narrow minded.

Actually I'm not.   I only described the home-ed parents I personally had met in England, and they all fitted the same description.   And I got jumped on.  So in turn I defended myself, in no better or worse fashion than you.

In fact, I have to say that the psychology of the parents was not appealing.  I detect a certain sense of superiority, that only you (in the plural) know how to educate children, and those of us who don't or can't centre our entire lives round the wellbeing of our offspring are somehow defective parents.

When I was younger and child-free and had ideals, home-educating did cross my mind as a possibility.   Then I met the parents.   I may have been unlucky, but they definitely gave the impression that normal life with the rest of humanity just wasn't good enough for their little darlings.  You know the kind of thing, the age-relevant toys of the right shape and colour for every age from Day 1, every film and book vetted for niceness and suitability, experiences were only those that the parents approved of (nature-related ones were particularly popular), never a raised voice to distress the little ones, and so on.  And you know, I would have been so miserable spending my days with such prissiness that it really wouldn't have been good for my children, both of whom seemed as good-natured and well-adjusted as any others I saw.        

SB, lucky keeper of one male loin-fruit, who is apparently bien élévé and gentil, although it always surprises me to be told it!      

[jorja]

actually i think it is a very personal decision to HE and not everyone would want to do it or is able to.

although i do have a penpal in the UK who is a single mum with M.E. and every excuse not to HE but she does. (her oldest child also has ME and is unable to go to school) so maybe my real opinion is that  most people could if they wanted to. but i am not saying that it is wrong to not want to teach your kids at home.

i think the fact is that all HEing parents have invested a huge amount of time and effort into what they are doing, so they are bound to feel very strongly about what they do.

[Teamedup]

I still have more questions than I've had answers.

 First is how can the Inspecteurs control that the child is being instructed to the correct level for their age etc if it is in a different language? So far from what has been said, it doesn't sound as if the CNED is being used, is it? The Inspecteurs are supposed to check on the children once a year after all. And the Mairie is supposed to check on the kids too aren't they. Also we were told that we HAD TO use the CNED, although I didn't go into this any further.

 

The second is, I keep thinking back to all the things I've taught my children, because even us conformists have to teach our children quite a lot. Half the time it wasn't instruction, it was conflict. My children did not want to learn from me or their Dad. And they were no different to their friends in this attitude where we were concerned.

edit: I'm sure I had an extra sentence on there? Strange!

 

So to finish how can you teach your own kids and it not be a fairly constant battle?

[Dick Smith]

Georgia - I'm sorry to ask this - but do you teach your child the use of capital letters at the beginnings of sentences?

[opas]

TU, I know exactly where you are coming from on that last point! Our youngest said she would so the `holiday book....Cedric`. The first few days were a breeze because of the novelty value, over the last week it has become harder to get her to sit down with me and do the 1/2 hour I allotted.

Dick Smith ,I was going to post that myself, why didn`t I ?   because I thought I`d endup being shot down in flames ,given who I am married to

Mrs O

[jorja]

Hi

it seems to me that this forum is really not helping anyone (this thread anyway!). as far as i can see there are a couple of people who really would like to help, but most people who have been talking about HE seem to be more interested in picking holes in each other.

i joined this discussion because i wanted to help people with my experience, but it is a waste of my time and there are obviously a great number of people out there with time to waste and nothing better to do than criticise.

if anyone really is interested in Home Education then i suggest you check out the links on the 1st page of this thread that bigjimbishop has given as that will give you all the info you need without all the crap that has been on since!!

you cannot learn about HE by listening to narrow minded people who have never tried it. it's like learning to play the guitar from someone who hates music!!

georgia

[SaligoBay]

No, Georgia, you're misinterpreting interest and curiosity as attack.

you cannot learn about HE by listening to narrow minded people who have never tried it.

But we're not learning much from you either!  The defensive message I'm hearing is "if you're not with us you're against us", which isn't true.    

 

 

  

[Teamedup]

Jorja, just because people chose to do this, does not make them necessarily  'right' or  'good at it' or 'better parents'. And if you knock curiosity, well what are we to think really. Because I am curious about this. I nearly did it but in the end the arguments against us doing it ended up outweighing doing it.

[bigjimbishop]

If anyone still has questions unanswered (and it seems to be the same questions all the time) then check these links to very old established and respected organizations.

http://www.sudval.org/

http://www.unschooling.com/library/faq/index.shtml

The criticisms that parents are not necessarily competent enough to educate their children seems harsh when I'm sure no parents check out school teachers qualifications or work record.

I have teaching friends who spend half their lesson hours covering subjects they have no knowledge of in the UK.

My sons 13yr old half-brother is jumping through all hoops at state school in Leicester but he's been stressed since age 8 and we've all tried to help at some point with the work load but he's still too concerned with fear of failure.

After 2 weeks into summer holidays the stress has completely disappeared, after 3 weeks he starts doing little science projects with bicarb and squeezy bottles and builds go carts and most important he self-motivates all the learning he needs to deal with technical/mathematical problems arising.

Schools these days struggle to inspire like that.

When you are inspired you learn faster than it takes a Xerox to print another worksheet.

It does not take "better or right" parents for this to happen just kids who are not under the bloody cosh of Mr Blairs grand plan.

Teachers have massive measurability tasks to perform weekly cutting their lesson planning/preparation and relaxation time to the point where they are stressed too. It's just not a healthy environment.

Most kids are bored/stressed in school.

Bolox to attacking Home Education. School is crap. So I'm going to attack school instead

National curriculums are designed by accountants and lawyer (aka politicians/media moguls) to produce scared big-brother-glued mind-numbed tax-paying predictable capitalist drones.

School leavers with any spirit survive school despite education and because their families do what they can to repair the damage school causes.

"School is preparation for real life".....crap.....when was real life sitting in a room with 34 people the same age looking at the same photo copy?

Socialization????????? that's crap and generally a negative experience fueled by consumerism, crap TV and too many sweets.

When was avoiding distressed issue-riddled bullies with no protection mental or physical like real life......um ok that is like lots of peoples lives but kids don't have to go through this just because adults do.

School of hard knocks.....does that really work? Borstall, Prison very successful systems NOT

Institutions.....I hate them.

School sucks. That's just UK school, you talk to most french people and they really hate it after age 6 as well.

You are what you eat, physically, spiritually and mentally so clean up. I'm off for a pastis with the other farmers.

Now don't be petty and comment on my grammer/syntax etc oh and keep it clean.

But do check out the links and question the system as much as possible it should be accountable to you. But is it?

Jim Patronizing Ranter biting back and ready for your guarded and genteel responces

[bigjimbishop]

What is happening in the US where home school is very popular

http://www.nheri.org/

Testmonials

http://www.education-otherwise.org/Links/HE_Adult_St/EO%20Dads.htm

[SaligoBay]

Now don't be petty and comment on my grammer/syntax etc

Oh go on, let me let me let me!   c/grammer/grammar    

[SaligoBay]

Well, he didn't say not to correct his spelling.....

[bigjimbishop]

Livin France cheque spel/gramer needed is

[bigjimbishop]

The french Home Ed site for Jorja

http://www.lesenfantsdabord.org/eindex.html

[Dick Smith]

Jim - I'd argue with you on one point - teachers' qualifications. In the UK at least teaching is an all-graduate profession, so the least you can expect is that a teacher will have a Bachelor's degree in their main subject plus a teaching qualificatoion - 4 years in all. Teachers are also tested regularly via the 'threshold' in which they have to demonstrate performance in order to progress on the pay spine, as well as mandatory performance management in all schools for all staff.

I'm not being snotty about grammar and punctuation - spelling mistakes are mostly typos, but grammar and punctuation are indicators of a general level of education - and email after email in which there are no capital letters makes you wonder what, precisely, is being taught...

[SaligoBay]

Now this is getting interesting!!!

BigJim's comments about school are possibly correct, and most of us possibly feel that way at some time or other.

BUT.....and this is nothing to do with whether people should HE or not, it's just to say that compulsory, universal education was brought in with the best of intentions.  It was a HUGE step forward from what went before.  Without it, many small children would still be cleaning chimneys or working in carpet factories, or cleaning toilets in call centres.

There are many many parents in this world (perhaps even a majority overall, who knows?) who really don't give a toss about what happens to their children, and for the millions of children in this situation, I would rather see them at school, with all its faults, than being beaten up at home for having the telly up too loud, or whatever other horrors would be lying in wait for them.

So all in all - and I've given this a lot of thought - my default would still be to try school first, and THEN try HE if things went disastrously wrong.

But that's just me. 

[bigjimbishop]

I agree teachers are well trained and state school systems were set up with the best of intentions. But even as a school governor a parent is arguably powerless to change the things that are wrong with the national curriculum and school policies as they are centrally enforced.

The fact remains that 90,000 kids are taught at home in the UK. That is only 1% but it is significant and rising. The majority are not children with special needs so why are people doing this more than ever?

Perhaps one could view home schooling as a most effective protest against the system. Although protest not being the primary reason to home educate.

Nobody wants or expects the whole state education system to be dismantled in favour of Home ed for all, that would be interesting but anarchic.

Consumer choice is what we are offered where choices are very limited by political agenda.

Consumer power is what we want where our children's education is governed to a larger extent by the community closer to the individual.

However I can see the issues in going too far down the latter track as it's very important for national standards in the work place to have a direct link to a level playing field in education.

The UK is run by lawyers and accountants, not by a representative cross section of society as it used to be. Can we trust these people to have vision rather than budget deadlines?

Education is really one area of UK life where we are still free unlike some of our European neighbours.

To promote variety in society it is essential that these freedoms exist.

Can you imagine one day an European Curriculum? It could happen.

[Debra]

"So all in all - and I've given this a lot of thought - my default would still be to try school first, and THEN try HE if things went disastrously wrong."

I think this is how a lot of home educators end up home educating.  I have met a lot more people who started home educating after their children had been at school for a while than I have met people whose children have never been to school.

Personally, I didn't even realise it was legal until I started looking into it all when my children started having problems with the ways they were being taught.  Once I found out, it didn't take long before I realised that home educating was the only way I felt I could rescue them from the situation they were in.

I have to say that had I known that home educating was possible before I sent my children to school then I would have still sent my eldest boy to school.  He was born in October and was the oldest in his class, confident and very ready and keen to go to school. 

However, my younger son was born in August, the youngest in his class and less confident (big brother always took charge and he followed) and I really wished I didn't have to send him for at least another year, possibly two years.  I knew a neighbour whose son was also born in August and had decided to keep him off school until the September (he was supposed to start in January).  She had a lot of contact with the local LEA who pressured her to send her son to school.  When he did go, in the September, he was placed straight into the Year 1 class because of his age, rather than being allowed to start in Reception because of his experience so far.  This seemed a little harsh at the time and he had problems for a while catching up.  He hadn't been home educated; his parents had simply delayed his start at school because they felt he was too immature to go at the 'compulsory school age'.  All this made me feel I had to send my son to school in January - so I was pretty sick when I found out later that there was no need at all and I could have simply educated him at home until I felt happier to send him to school.  I still feel that this right of parents to home educate is deliberately kept quiet.  How many times have we seen news items about parents who are prosecuted for not sending children to school over bullying concerns?  Are any of those parents ever told that they can simply de-register their children and opt to educate them at home?

Until this forum, I've never seen or heard negative comments about my decision to home educate.  Most people react along the lines of they wished they could do it, but don't feel they would have the patience or the intellectual capability.  Some wish they could do it but don't feel they can afford for one parent to stop work to take the main responsibility.  Others emphatically state that under no circumstances would they consider it as they would miss the space they get when their children go to school and couldn't stand having them around all day (so let the teachers take them and give them a break)!

I feel lucky and privileged to be able to do this now and spend so much time with my children while they are young.  If I ever felt they might be missing out, on balance, from not being at school then I wouldn't hesitate to send them.  I lack confidence about handling secondary level education for my children myself but I won't write the idea off until I get closer to that time and have more information about it. 

However, the thought of home educating in a different country with different laws about different education standards is a little scary.  Thanks to those who have tried to answer my questions without attacking the reason for them.  Any tips about how you handled the language issue while home educating in France would be really helpful.  BigJim - did you get the

[Debra]

Just a bit more about the age gap within classes.... It really is quite significant in the early years at school.  I used to feel guilt that I hadn't had the time to teach my youngest how to read before he attended full time school, like I had my eldest, and thought that if I had, he wouldn't have had problems with the sight reading method used at our local school.  I used to try fitting in extra reading practice with him after school and at weekends, only to find it quite frustrating as he was tired from school and didn't seem to have the patience.  He is now flying through learning to read and though this is partly because being taught phonetically makes sense to him, I realised that hi sproblems were also probably partly down to his age and the stage of development he was at as well as the experience he'd had.  He had nearly a year less nursery experience than his brother did and started school 9 months younger.  This meant he had less time to learn to read at home before school for these reasons, not just because Mum now had two children and lots of personal things going on and less time for one to one reading lessons.  However, I also feel he wasn't actually ready to learn to read when he started school at age 4 years and 5 months.  He was just expected to, along with the other kids who were aged up to 5 years and 4 months.

Debra

[SaligoBay]

I still feel that this right of parents to home educate is deliberately kept quiet.

And possibly wisely.  Like euthanasia, it may be acceptable in some circumstances, but you don't want everyone to be free to do it just when they want.   Not everyone can be trusted with important things like children's education or other people's lives.   Many people are just too stupid, and others are just plain bad.   Some are even both!! 

Ever seen the Royle Family?  People worse than that exist in the Real World!  

[Debra]

[quote]I still feel that this right of parents to home educate is deliberately kept quiet. And possibly wisely. Like euthanasia, it may be acceptable in some circumstances, but you don't want everyone to ...[/quote]

lol - I get your point, but then don't we get into a debate about whether such people should be allowed to have children in the first place, since they are solely responsible for their children's lives from when they are conceived up until they go to school, and even then, outside of school hours!

Debra

[bigjimbishop]

The Royale Family Rock!

Here is the book title for DebraA64

"Changer d'Ecole, changer l'Ecole"

by Roger Auffrand

ISBN 2406808-09-1

[email protected]

www.multimania.com/possible

All questions answered in French, Hurrah.

A+

Jim