It makes me mad

[hastobe]

I don't think this is a peculiarly French trait.  While a very close friend of mine was studying for her PhD one of her fellow students was taking his University finals (dual honours - with French being one of the subjects).  He was English but spoke fluent French, having lived in Provence for many years with his French wife.  He failed the French exam - apparently he used too many colloquiallisms and had a local dialect!  To say he was hopping mad was an understatement! 

Maybe we have missed the point -  perhaps we should be studying French to acquire a piece of paper rather than to improve our ability to communicate / integrate.   [:s]  

Sounds like the teacher has missed a wonderful opportunity to expand her own understanding of English - and that of your child's fellow classmates - which is very sad.

Hastobe

[Iceni]

I helped our neighbours daughter with her English on Saturday. One paragraph included a drinks dispenser that did not work in the teachers staff room. The suggestion was that they shake and then kick the machine (really good example to set). Then the next paragraph said that the colleague 'drew' near. Now I don't know about you but that is not a term I have ever used in written English. I don't think I have ever said it. We got out the fantastic PC dictionary they are using and she typed in 'drew' - so you can imagine how confused she was. I tried to explain but I am sure Shakespear would have had less difficulty in describing the term in that context.

They are doing Spanish and English side by side - she is fantastic at Maths and has problems with her native language grammar (normally you are Arts or Maths based). I am going back next week as she needs the confidence to speak English - as my French is about as good as her English I think she relaxes with me. The English student in her class is having a great deal of grief in the English lessons and has lived in France for many years.

My French GCE consisted of a paper which was mainly on Space travel as it was 'Man on the Moon era'. The school had never had so many failures in French in one year - a girls school so none of us could probably have written the story shown in the pictures in English let alone French.

[Suze01]

[quote user="Sevenup"]

I am thinking that maybe I should purchase a good French Dictionary and simply read through the French descriptions. My French is not that good but at least it may enable me to find the words.

Can anyone suggest a really good French (France) Dictionary.

[/quote]

I did just that, having been frustrated at not finding the words in my (quite thick) French-English dictionary.  I bought Larousse de Poche - not actually pocket sized, it about A5 and more than 2 inches thick, I have found all the words that I've looked for so far in it.

[SaligoBay]

Bilingual dictionaries.   Collins Robert is MUCH better than the Oxford Hachette.   Now that I have a dog, I can give the Oxford Hachette to him to chew.

English teaching in France.  Son was aghast that his French friend in 6ème was told that "fangs" translates as "false teeth".   There have been other misleading translations, but I can't remember them now.   It's not a case of American v British, it's just lack of knowledge, I think.

[Suze01]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

s aghast that his French friend in 6ème was told that "fangs" translates as "false teeth".   There have been other misleading translations, but I can't remember them now.   It's not a case of American v British, it's just lack of knowledge, I think.

[/quote]

My son's  english teacher mispronounces  many words.  She insists than 9th is pronounced nin-th.  He lost a mark for not writing 'television-set' instead of television: who these days says "television-set"?

[Polycarpe]

Hi Val2,

I'm curious that you chose to use an American expression "It makes me mad" as the thread title, rather than the English "It makes me angry". Maybe you wanted to demonstrate a sense of irony, which the Americans don't have, allegedly.[;)]

I understand your frustration and that of other UK residents with children at school in France. I'm a defender and supporter of English. However, I believe that American has enriched our language more than polluted it and has added many layers and colours to our use of figurative English.

As another poster has suggested, what's needed among French English teachers is not the abandoning of American (their choice) but the acknowledgement that there is another older and more flexible cousin i.e. English. I don't want to be told that my language doesn't exist. While not the most widely spoken language, its ability to change and to absorb the best of the others has made English the most successful tongue.

Rob

[Will]

I think what most of the contributors here have demonstrated is that foreign languages as taught in schools differ considerably from the languages as used by native speakers. I suppose I am a bit surprised that this section of education has not advanced much in the 40 years or so since I took my GCEs, but I am not really surprised that language teaching in French schools seems much as it was 30-40 years ago in Britain.

My recollections of French lessons were learning lists of vocabulary (parrot fashion) - but rather than trying to learn the gender of a noun along with the word, which is how I am told the French are taught, these were picked up separately, usually according to rules as to what types of things were masculine and which were feminine, but there were so many exceptions to those rules that they were useless. Also being taught numerous different tenses of verbs, few of which I can remember now, and which I never hear used in France anyway. I don't recall hardly any real spoken French, or being taught 'accents'. 

You could probably blame the curriculum or the teacher. In the case of the latter he was head of languages, had written one of the standard French text books, and had joined the school staff in 1925 (just looked that up in the school history). So he could get away with such lazy teaching I suppose. He also projected an image of knowing his subject by frequently wearing a beret, and having a strong visual resemblance to a Frog, not to mention some rather Gallic spitting and nose-picking habits.

One the other hand, we have a friend now (French) who is a professor of English at Rouen university. His everyday grammar and colloquial English is very good, not quite native-speaker standard but certainly 99%. His accent however is real Antoine de Caunes stuff, I find it quite charming but it does seem to wind up some English people that an English language expert should not have a better English accent.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Will the Conqueror"]

My recollections of French lessons were learning lists of vocabulary

(parrot fashion) - but rather than trying to learn the gender of a

noun along with the word, which is how I am told the French are taught,

these were picked up separately, usually according to rules as to what

types of things were masculine and which were feminine, but there were

so many exceptions to those rules that they were useless. Also being

taught numerous different tenses of verbs, few of which I can remember

now, and which I never hear used in France anyway. I don't recall

hardly any real spoken French, or being taught 'accents'. 

[/quote]

I was taught (no joke) to pronounce the -ent in conjugations such as

"ils donnent." I never sat French "O" level. I do, however, have a CSE

in French Studies, which turned out to be quite a useful qualification

as it served me quite well for surviving in France - knowing how to buy

rail tickets, being able to identify popular types of cheese at a

distance of 15 paces, that sort of thing.

I assumed that I was just crap at languages until I got sent to work in

the Netherlands and was functionally fluent in Dutch in about three

months (albeit with a cringe-making accent). Immersion and a lack of

choice is a great way to learn.

Great stock is placed by language education, and frankly I wonder it at

school level there is really much point in providing it in such a

formal manner. Would a broader based European cultural qualification

that included some elements of several langagues (phrase book stuff, if

you like) be a better way of equipping pupils?

[daniel]

I'm french and I must say that reading this thread was great fun ! A

few things : nobody cares about the académie française here. It takes

them 50 years to go through the dictionnary from A to Z so that when

they come back to A, the language has changed so much that the next run

will last a century. But they are part of the paysage, just like the

garde républicaine, the 14 juillet and the pétanque. There are a few

people who master the whole academic french. Maybe two or three ! But

these are professionals who practice everyday for the "dictée de Pivot"

competition.

We don't even know if the English we (try to) use is English, American

or Martian, and just as for the académie : who cares. It would be fun

to see a Brit speaking perfect canadian french but I have little hope.

Don't bother, just make sure you can order a pastis at the bar and

you'll be happy with your englishish french.

[Teamedup]

I always think that they should proscribe the word language and start using the word ecrivage or some such thing in schools.

Strangely as a baby and small child my parents taught me to speak using my langue. And I did the same with my children, I also expect when I learn another language that the tongue bit should be the most important initially rather than the scribe bit.

[Mistral]

Son was aghast that his French friend in 6ème was told that "fangs" translates as "false teeth".  

Live 6eme unit 4 lesson 3 (or new live 6eme unit 3 lesson 3) "where's your hat?" I always felt that "fangs" was a particularly useful piece of vocabulary to teach kids [*-)] (for those who want to know Dennis and Julie are planning their halloween disguises and can't find all the bits) I don't bother to translate it to my pupils, they all recongize the picture as "crocs". But I do teach "teeth" at the same time

Val, I would be so tempted to make a marmite sandwich for this idiot (spread thickly of course) and watch him eat it. Live 6eme (again) actually uses marmite as an example of a faux ami in the introductury bit. It sounds to me that he is feeling uncomfortable with the idea of having a native English speaker in class. But that's his problem, not your son's.

 

[Sevenup]

[quote user="daniel"]I'm french and I must say that reading this thread was great fun ! A few things : nobody cares about the académie française here. It takes them 50 years to go through the dictionnary from A to Z so that when they come back to A, the language has changed so much that the next run will last a century. But they are part of the paysage, just like the garde républicaine, the 14 juillet and the pétanque. There are a few people who master the whole academic french. Maybe two or three ! But these are professionals who practice everyday for the "dictée de Pivot" competition.
We don't even know if the English we (try to) use is English, American or Martian, and just as for the académie : who cares. It would be fun to see a Brit speaking perfect canadian french but I have little hope. Don't bother, just make sure you can order a pastis at the bar and you'll be happy with your englishish french.

[/quote]

Daniel

It is nice to hear from a French person who doesn't take it all too seriously. My French is very definately Englishish French. I think the biggest problem has been my not grasping the fact that I just can't string together a few words and something meaningfull will register with the person I'm speaking to. I have found out that if you're trying to buy something then any words will do and in fact the other person may even break into English, which rather spoils all my effort.

I never did learn French at school and didn't even do terribly well with my English. As they say. Life is too short.

I'm off to order a Pastis.

 

[daniel]

Mistral, marmite is a faux amis for the french until they try it. After

this experience, anything which sounds like british becomes a vrai

ennemi. You should not be allowed to import this stuff without a

special licence for toxic products ;-)

[SaligoBay]

Daniel, wait till you try Vegemite!!    

[Mistral]

You should not be allowed to import this stuff without a special licence for toxic products ;-)

LOL. I have a colleague who will eat most things and try anything but he says the only time he had to spit something out and wash out his mouth was when he tried marmite. I think you have to be brought up on it from an early age (like andouilletes?)

[daniel]

I new about dynamite but I never heard of vegemite, so I understand

that when you see a can with "xxxxmite" written on it, you'd better

stay away.

As for andouillettes, you are right : this is probably toxic but still

quite safe and this is a good training before trying the real terrible

french "abats". You won't find amourette anymore (because of the mad

cow desease), but you could try (at your own risks) the "tablier de

sapeur", the "pieds de porc" or the worse : the animelle, sometimes

called "rognon blanc".

Bon appétit les angliches :-)

[Georgina]

Back to the original thread: my french friends tell me that none of the English teachers they have ever had have ever been to England!!

Georgina

 

PS I am curious to know why, not that I don't welcome you, a French person is interested in an expat site for mostly Brits. Please tell. Unless you are improving your English??[:)] At least you have learned what chips really are not

[Georgina]

   Should read: at least you have learned what chips really are now!!!

 

Sorry won't let me edit!!!!********

[Dick Smith]

To take Will's point:

"Ful wel she sange the service devine,

Entuned in hire nose ful swetely;

And Frenche she spake ful fayre and fetisly,

After the scole of Stratford atte bowe,

For Frenche of Paris was to hire unknowe."

G Chaucer (around 1390)

[Pangur]

[quote user="Georgina"]

Back to the original thread: my french friends tell me that none of the English teachers they have ever had have ever been to England!!

Georgina

[/quote]

There are plenty of other places to learn or practice perfectly good English you know...[:D]

I would imagine most of the French teachers in UK schools are British, not French and that their less than perfect accents and lack of knowledge of modern French slang and vocabulary might shock a French person.   I was taught French by a septogenarian nun who had honed her French in the Cote d-Ivoire.  Didn-t do me much harm in exams and her teaching has stood me in good stead here, although I imagine the French we were taught might have been a bit bizarre to people in the Hexagon.

 

[daniel]

[quote user="Georgina"]

Back to the original thread: my french friends tell me that none of the English teachers they have ever had have ever been to England!!

Georgina

 

PS I am curious to know why, not that I don't welcome you, a French person is interested in an expat site for mostly Brits. Please tell. Unless you are improving your English??[:)] At least you have learned what chips really are not

[/quote]

The only English teacher I know is my ex wife. She is French, traveled a lot across the US, and we spent two years in London. Why am I interested in your forum ? To tell the truth, how I ended up browsing a forum called "Living France" i don't know,  but it took me a while to realise that it was as you say for "mostly Brits". As an ex-expat myself, I know how it feels when you don't understand the why and how so I may offer some help if I can. I'm sure those of you who have been here for years know just as well as I do if not better but as I sometimes write : "hope this helps". Lots of Brits bought properties where my parents live (Poitou) and they

created an "association" to know each other better, teach French to the

British and the other way round, etc. I guess you could ask my parents the same "why are you interested in ... " question. As I mentionned before, the reading of some threads is great fun for a French, and it also reminds me of my time in London, which was great. I must admit I don't quite understand why so many of you want to live in France. So that my own "why are you interested in ... " question. "Not to say that I don't welcome you" in France, "au contraire"... As for my english, I never learned it at school. I Just went to London

and tried to cope. That's where I learned what chips are and are not. I miss Britain actually and I was recently very happy to find some "chips salées au vinaigre" at Intermarché :-)

[Georgina]

Actually, thanks for filling me in Daniel, I am now going to see if I can find any French expat sites, I suppose it gives a better insight into the minds of the French, or does it??? Sometimes we cringe at the things being said here I am sure, and most will be worried that if you read something slightly critical, you may take offence??

Let me know where those sites are, could be interesting.[:)]

Georgina

[Dick Smith]

I was taught French by a Belgian (Belgienne?) and so find septante a perfectly sensible number...

[cabman]

I 'm not sure how long ago it was written, but it seems things haven't changed much.

 

“In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French; I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their language.” ...Mark Twain

[Iceni]

I am helping my neighbours 16 year old daughter with her English. She did not want to bring her homework down as she said she was embarassed at how little she understood.

Well I will not bore you with the subject just to say that translating the phrase 'he is tighter than two coats of paint' in reference to a well known pop star with Scottish parents was a bit of an effort.

I had an elderly English magazine which she seemed very uninterested in until she found that most products advertised for makeup, hair etc were French - that got her talking. How to tell her parents that in two sets of homework that I have helped with I have come across two phrases that I have never heard before. And as for the fact that they have been taught that people 'draw near' when they approach you - English as she aint spoke me old mates.

She gets more time with me than with the so called English teacher and I gather the one English girl who has been in France many years thinks the lessons are a hoot and says she is learning a new language as it is not the one she or her parents speak.

Gawd knows what the Spanish teaching is like. -- In the region they don't even speak normal French - peng for bread and veng for wine and the number 20 - she can also understand a little patois. I am a true born Cockney so she stands no chance.