unhappy 15 year old

[Bouzirouge]

Hi, I am looking for an alternative to the usual french state or catholic prive schools for my 15 year old who is miserable at school. we have been here nearly 5 years so language is not a problem. He is bright but hates school and has lost interest. His siblings have settled well and are really happy so we know he is the problem not the schools! have looked at steiner schools etc but have no reference point in france and would appreciate advice from anyone with experience in this area, thanks.

[Just Katie]

Hi, sorry I cannot give information on schools in France as I am in UK but I can talk about sons. 

My son was 16 last month and it seems he is similar to your son.  Also my son is very bright although he does just enough to scrape through.  My son does not like school.. any school.  I moved him two years ago for the same reasons are you are explaining and I am still having problems. He is a very outgoing popular boy and has lots of different friends in different circles.  He is doing his GCSE's this summer and over the last few months has been rolling his eyes about when we mention his A Levels.  I have now decided A Levels are not the answer as he needs a totally different teaching strategy to what is offered in schools. 

He has told me he would like to go into white collar construction work such as surveying, health and safety officer, civil engineer but hasnt made up his mind yet.  I have therefore looked at the college route and found a BTEC course in construction takes two years and is equivalent to 3 A levels which will get him onto a related degree.

I hope that this will be the answer for him as the lectures will be 'more grown up' than school lessons.  Also, I think this type of course will be a better preparation for his degree as most of the modules overlap.

I think that my son has tired from the school environment and has outgrown the teacher/pupil relationship and I hope he is looking forward to being treated more like an adult.

I wonder if there are similar courses available in France.

[godwinsj]

I am going through the same problems as well!

All mine wants to do is coast through troisième then join the army as that is what his friends are doing. As his main enjoyments are drawing & reading I can't see how this is going to suit him and am worried to say the least! He too is totally turned off school & hates his teachers and although quite capable of getting his Brevet, he has let his average in quatrième drop so low that he does not stand much chance of getting it unless a miracle happens & he decides to work seriously hard. The answer would be to redouble & start the whole course again but he says he would rather die!

There are various Lycée Professionnels around where he could do a Brevet professionnel but does this actually lead to any sort of carreer structure? 

Any ideas & advice would be greatfully received!

[Mistral]

I'm prof principal in 3eme and I have to deal with situations like this quite a lot. The whole professionel system has a very bad (and in my mind almost totally undeserved) reputation. A lot of pupils get to the end of 3eme and have had enough of the "classic" educational system but at the same time, they aren't ready to go out to work (even if that were possible) nor are they really looking for an apprentissage. they may welll have the brain to get the brevet (not that that means much  at the moment) and go on to lycée general but they don't want to. they want to do something more practical. something that leads to a job and not another 5 years worth of studying.

For most of these students, a lycée pro is the best idea. 14 hours a week are on basic core subjects so they aren't losing out on academic learning and the the other 14 hours are in atelier learning a profession. They also have about 3 weeks of "stage"  per year. At the end of 2 years, they have a basic qualification (BEP) This is enough to find them a job. It  probably won't be a very well paid satisfying job, but most of the professions studied for BEP are the kind where you can progress through ability as much a qualifications. About half of BEP pupils stay on to take the bac pro (a LEP teacher once explained "for BEP they can repair an electronic circuit, with bac pro they can create it) this is a Bac, just like any general bac, with the added advantage of being immediately use-able and theref ore more sought after tby employers. One of our local LEP's has the local businesses poaching pupils just before the bac pro (they can pay them less that way)

Most LEP's offer a mini-stage in one or more of their filieres. And most have portes ouvertes (although you may have missed them, they tend to be in march) my 3emes get a brochure from ONISEP which lists all the subjects and where in the academie. The best places to start is the local CIO (centre d'information et d'orientation) and the ONISEP website,  http://195.214.240.73/national/accueil/html/accueil.htm especially the regional part. The professeur principal should know the filieres in the local LEP's as well but not the odder ones further away unless he has already had a pupil do one. (like I had a pupil do MSMA at eurocopter 2 years ago)

There are no catchment areas for LEP's,  and you can ask for up to three filieres/LEP's in the public sector and as many as you want in the private.

[vervialle]

I cannot give you any constructive advice, but just tell you that I went through the same thing with my 15 year old he was bright,and could have made mincemeat of  most of his class, he seemed to have no direction whatsoever and only thought about having a good time, I honestly think he thought the fairys would deliver his GCSE certificates, I hated parents evening and had to have a drink before going because they always told me how capable he was , but he never handed homework in on time and he was lazy. I was really worried and thought he could follow in his dads trade if all else failed (ceramic tiling) oh no he said I couldnt do that its boring.I made him stay on for A levels and let him choose them as he blamed me for the choice of his GCSE, but I was only guided by the teachers as to what he should take.After his Alevels, results not brilliant, he did not want to go to uni as he had no idea what to do, so we made him get a job it took 6 months, but he is flying along now, loves every minute of it, enjoys London life,he has moved there as he hated the train journey and shares a flat with a friend,he is totaly independent and I have come to the conclusion, although he liked the social side of school , he was to immature to think about the future.I really did stand back in the end because he always blamed me for everything which is so disheartening when you strive so hard for them.I know he was not educated in France, but I think he would have been just the same if he had of been.I think sometimes they just cannot live up to the expectations they think we have of them, its a really difficult age for boys as they do not mature as young as girls do.I know what did work, I made him get a part time job when he was 16 and he hated it and that made him think that he did not want to do a job like that for the rest of his life.I know what you are going through but I do believe they find their own way in the end even if it takes longer than others.My lad appreciates home now and works very hard and long hours in the city, who would have thought it, not me!!!!I wish you all good luck, perhaps they could somehow come to the U>K to do a course if you have family in the U>K they could stay with, its suprising how much they change when they leave home.Incidently my lads 19 years old now.

[Pangur]

My brother went through the exact same thing as Vervaialle's son did.  We knew he was academically able, he just disliked school and couldn't be bothered studying.  He managed to get through his Leaving Cert, floundered through the first year of  university and then suddenly woke up.  We're still not sure how or why but at the age of 20, he started to take his studies seriously, got a really good degree and is now doing fantastically in a major bank.  When he was 18 he was looking jealously at his mates who had gone the apprentice route and were earning - now he can see that it wasn't for him.  My husband did the exact same thing, and I see the same thing with many boys - they don't see the relevance of school and it's not until they're a bit older that they seem to put the work in and catch up.

It probably wouldn't make a difference what country your son was in, or possibly what school.  I suppose the big thing for parents is to decide whether or not it is worth pushing them the whole way through the system in the hope that they'll mature along the way (and at least they'll have the all important qualification) or whether they are genuinely more suited towards an apprenticeship type education.  Personally, I think it's dangerous to cut off their options too young - particularly when it seems that boys don't alway know what it is they want.  Lots of luck!

[godwinsj]

Thank you, Mistral for the practical advice! Having gone down the acdemic route myself, and coming from a very academic family it is hard for me to adjust to my son's outlook on life but you have made me see that there could be another way for him. I know that Max is not unusual - I guess I just thought he would be like every one else in my close family! 

[Tresco]

Goodwinsj

My older brother was  (and is) very bookish at 15, but completely disinterested at school and he had big had problems with people in postitions of authority.  I think he may have left school with a couple of very bad CSE's and was constantly in the dog house with my parents.

He took himself off into the Navy, (at just 16) was educated to a high standard, and  had a fantastic career which continued into civilian life when he left after 16 years.

My father was in the Royal Navy too and would have loved for his other two sons to go in, but when this brother was 15 my dad was of the opinion it was the very last option for him,because of his interests and 'attitude'.

Strange how things work out sometimes isn't it?

Good luck to all you worried parents.

[vervialle]

Afriend of mines son went in the navy and did not choose to go down the university route despite a grammar school education and excellent exam results, he had a brilliant training and it gave him a wonderful discipline and he has a really fantastic job in civy street now and is very happy and saw the world in the process. I forgot to mention in my post that my son was the only child not to go to university in our family and I was really upset about it as I expected he would just progress in that fashion as he went to an independent school and they all naturally fed in to university he was one of two boys in the year that did not go in that direction, but he loves what he is doing, he is now a stockbroker for a firm that really value him , he has a great life is very well financially rewarded ,and I guess university was not for him and it seems unless you come out with a 1st now employers do not give you a second look, so the pressure is on as there are an awful lot of youngsters with degrees working in menial jobs.My niece has a brilliant degree and cannot get on teacher training course.So the accademic route is not always the answer.

[MargaretD]

I think I'm following on from Mistral's comments...

I teach the BEP and Bac Pro.  The kids are in the Centre de Foramtion des Apprentis every other week.  They get paid, at 16 I think it is 25% of SMIC and it increases with age.  The BEP's are usually two years, as is the Bac Pro.  After that there is the option of the BTS etc. 

The standard in the groups is academically very mixed, but at a higher level than the CAP's.  There are all sorts of trades, and I teach English to some of them.  A couple are fluent, whilst others are trying to get to grips with recognising similar words, then guessing the rest.

Also as a trained SENCo I think I could see the benefits of something similar in UK schools -

M

[HLG]

* An alternative is the Lycee de Saint Nazaire. It's meant for boys (or girls I suppose although it seems to be mostly boys) who are bright but dislike traditional schooling and authority. The school is collaboratively managed between teachers and pupils, with the pupils working on rules and enforcing them, taking turns doing jobs around the school, proposing specific class topics, etc. The teachers are "tutors" and rarely teach whole classes. Their curriculum is interdisciplinary and often provocative - they'll study the biological, legal, economic, and philosophical ramifications of marijuana's illegality, for example.  They must all live in apartments and share cooking/cleaning responsibilities (under adult supervision.) The pupils can prepare the bac but not all do. Some simply stay for one or two years, until they can accept "traditional" schooling again. Those who are intend on preparing the bac at that school meet with their tutors for "bac modules" with intensive study and work in small groups. All classes are small and mostly discussion-style. The school requires a lot of maturity and self-motivation. There is a booklet published: http://www.pemf.fr/site/index.php?clef=PEMF_ARTICLE_DETAIL&id=893

http://ecolesdifferentes.free.fr/art13a.htm

 

* There is a similar school in Oleron, an island off the Atlantic Coast, which serves teenagers who are smart but not necessarily "book-smart" and who would benefit from a different environment to suceed. The bac general is offered (L, ES, S), with specialties in physical education and art, plus "reinforced English " for literature or for social sciences. It follows the same principles as above and requires boarding.

http://hebergement.ac-poitiers.fr/l-cepmo/lyceeexp.htm

* Finally, for brainy, independent kids who can't stand the intellectual limits of traditional schools, there is  the CLE of Herouville-Saint Clair, a college-lycee that functions along the same lines as those above (tutorials, interdisciplinary workshops, collaborative living, boarding only) , but with the bac and university as a goal. HURRY if your son might be interested because selection is taking place April-May.

http://www.etab.ac-caen.fr/cleh/

 

All these schools are free and public. Admission doesn't follow any catchment area; it is selective (essay/interview and for the CLE, school records). There is one about to be added in the banlieue parisienne, a newer one in Grenoble, and a couple more at the collège level (off the top of my head, one in Saint Martin de Valmeroux, boarding; one in Bordeaux, day school.) All alternative schools (public and private) can be found in the "Annuaire des ecoles differentes":

http://ecolesdifferentes.free.fr/

[Teamedup]

I gave a sigh of relief when I saw you post this HLG, about time too. I just hope that it isn't all flannel and there are establishments out there that do 'work'. In the past I have had enough false promises and hollow words to last me a life time.

[Patf]

Our sons have long ago finished this phase,thank goodness, but I know

of two families here whose teenage sons were very unhappy and in

trouble +++ in ordinary schools. Then changed to specialist schools and

did well. One specialised in ecological subjects, a bit of agriculture

etc, and the other in artisanal things such as carpentry also much

rugby. These schools and others exist in the Gers but the pupils board

four nights a week - very cheap. As someone said, there's a need for

these vocational kinds of schools in UK. Pat.

[Missy]

As Mistral says in her posting try this Lycée Professionel for your bored children.

I speak from experience of having being totally bored with school and collège by the time I came to do my BEPC. I just could not envisage living at home for another 3 to 4 years and go towards the BAC in my home town (Niort in 79) and end up being a secretary at some undistinct office/factory place.

So I played holy hell with my parents and insisted that I go to a catering/tourism college. After much huffing and puffing my father relented and went to a catering lycée/collège (Clermont-Ferrand) That lycée/collège also had sections for chemist, computing (then still in its infancy) engineering (Clermont is the birth place to the  Michelin empire) and loads of other 'trades'. From the very first day to the very last minute at that lycée I had nothing but fun!

Fun and hard work! as all my energy was chanelled into something that was of use to me immediately. Unlike my friends back home, who were more than bored to go on hols with their parents during the long summer months,  I was able to work!! during the summer, had my first taste of being 'grown up', having to budget my meager wages, sort out my living! ....

In the 2nd and 3rd year I was able to work at weekends on the two non-negotiable conditions that : 1/ all work given by teachers was submitted by the Saturday lunch time (as we still had school on Saturday mornings then) and 2/ everyone back for the roll call at 6pm on Sunday night (as we were all full time boarders).     Well!! You never saw such a bunch of pupils making sure that homework was back on time and then ran off to the train/bus station to go to the various place where MONEY was waiting! I worked at some fantastic places, met some fantastic people, travelled as much as I could ever dream off when stuck back in Niort...

That was some 30+years ago. Though now I am no longer in the industry, having moved on to various other carreers, I look back on that time with absolute fondness. So all of you parents out there don't insist too much on the academic side of life, though it is important I agree, if your kids have an inkling of what they would like to do, be it engineering, chemistry whatever... channel them through the Lycée/Collège Professionel.

[HLG]

Beside the "écoles différentes" for kids who want alternative methods, lycée professionnel for kids who have an interest in a trade, there are "maisons familiales rurales" - boarding schools for boys who are in trouble academically and can't stand school. These are small structures where teachers live in the school and provide as much pastoral care as impart knowledge. The focus is on skills needed in rural areas - not just farming but all kinds of jobs like carpentry, etc. The kids are "en alternance" so they make a stipend from work. Perhaps it's the type of school Pfaffp refers to?  The results are absolutely excellent. If your son plans to live in a small town or rural area and is interested in working but doesn't know quite what to do, it's an excellent choice. Their motto is "Success, through other ways" (Reussir, Autrement). They offer classes up to the BTS so if your son is successful and likes it, he can get all the way to further education through this. They are not well-known because they don't depend from the Education Ministry, but I know of a boy who went there and turned his life around. They are public and follow the Ministry's guidelines, but are funded through the Ministry of Agriculture.

http://www.mfr.asso.fr/

[Patf]

HLG - yes I think the schools I mentioned were probably Reussir,

Autrement types. One of the boys especially was very disturbed when his

mother just up and left the family. Pat.