Education options for 16yr olds

[sassy]

We have recently bought a property in the Bergerac area and have made the decision to move there permenantly.  We have six children ranging from 16mnths to 15yrs.  Our original plan was to make the move when No3. had finished his GSCES, which would be in 5yrs time. But now having made the decision to move, we are wondering what we are waiting for.  Most of the children  (those that can voice an opinion) are quite happy make the move from England.  Our biggest bugbear is our 15yr old son, who has enough trouble deciding what is next to eat without worrying about what he is going to do with the rest of his life !  We would not go until he had completed his GCSES which will be in Summer 08. One of the subjects he is taking is GSCE French and we are also having french lessons as a family, so hopefully we should all be able to converse at a reasonable level.  Can anybody tell me what the education options are for a bright, but reluctant, (16yr old) student?  Are the such things as vocational courses in France or perhaps specialised training, say in engineering ? Any info would be much appreciated.

[Val_2]

Usually 16 is when the kids start Lycée in a chosen subject or profession. You really need to contact the local Lycée to see what they can offer your son as time is getting short and the locals will soon be applying and there are only a certain number of places on each class available. Without some sort of Lycée qualification, work prospects will be grim in France with the high unemployment amongst the young currently. Anything like engineering will need good spoken and written french as there will be other academic subjects to take during the ler to Terminale year for a BAC,BEP or CAP etc. I personally would never move a child of that age to a foreign country without fluency and several years of education there first, too many have fallen by the wayside and left to their own devices.

[Clarkkent]

I doubt you will like this reply.

Ask yourself: What is your responsibility to your son? Is it to ensure that he gets the best start in his adult life or is it to help you achieve some dream which may or not be realistic?

It is quite possible that he makes an excellent transition. But it is into an educational system which will be totally unlike the one he is in now, in a language in which he has little competence, in a culture which has different values and in a philosophy which is alien. If he were five it would be no problem, at fifteen it is the roots of a catastrophy. What would his prospects be in an environment in which there is already high unemployment.

I do not wish to be judgemental, but - in his case - I fear that he will be the victim of your own whim.

[Chancer]

Yes he may be the victim but they would have to wait a further 16 years plus to ensure that there will be no others.

[YCCMB]

I'd hate to be another person to spoil your plans, but I've seen a few GCSE French papers, and to be honest, even achieving a Grade A is not really going to equip your son for a great deal.

I may be quite wrong, and others are better qualified than me to advise you, but I am pretty sure that even getting your son into the French education system at 16 may prove challenging. Just as in England, post-16 education isn't compulsory, and if the Lycees in your area haven't the resources to offer your son help with his language etc., I don't think they will even have to accept him.

It's a really tough decision and there are lots of considerations. It would certainly be worth making a trip over and having some discussions with Lycees etc., before you make the move, and thus hopefully being better informed before any final decision.

[DZ]

Hi Sassy

There have been many discussions on this forum on moving to France with teenagers, in which I have taken great interest as that is what I had been considering doing myself (and chickened out of, perhaps sadly...).  Here is a link to one I remember.  I don't know if this will be helpful, but it's always interesting to read.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/749961/ShowPost.aspx

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Val_2]

Further to my previous reply I have two children who have both been through the Lycée system here, one of them twice having done a further specialised qualification in a different dept(making five Lycée years in total) and the younger getting his first qualification in a two year study and now coming upto a professional BAC after a further two years and it is my close experience that teachers are not there to mollycoddle the pupils - most like my two are legally adults and if they do not attend,do not do their homework or classwork they are just left behind, there is absolutely no spare time for extra help in class or outside and the teachers are all just fonctionaires working 8-5 and no longer. Most Lycées are over 2000 pupils in even small towns although you canfind private ones for a fee and only if you are accepted over local applicants. If you have not had previous french primaire and collège grounding in the main subjects then Lycée can be an absolute nightmare. Please think long and carefully about your son, you could ruin his future unintentionally when he could go to great heights inthe UK.

[sassy]

Thank you to DZ for the link  (Im sorry you decided not to go) and to eveyone else who has replied so far.  It has made very interesting reading and has left me feeling thoroughly depressed and ashamed.  I had thought that our desire for 'a better life' would be of  benefit to us all. Not so! To think that embarking on a new direction could cause so much upheavel and misery to my children and has made me feel completely selfish and guilty. I have a very deep understanding of the commitment I made to my children by bringing them into this world, especially having gone through the turmoil of No4. being diagnosed with a heart defect prenatally and having to have life threatening heart surgery at 5 days old. I would in no way put their future or happiness in jepordy.  I was hoping for advise, no decisions have been made yet, just ideas and desires for the good of all, not just Mum and Dad.    Yes I can see the difficulties are very obvious ,but I now feel publicly admonished for asking the question in the first place.  A little oversesative maybe ?  Maybe it was not what I wanted to hear, maybe that's why I feel so disheartened, but is there really no positive thinking on this subject.

[LanguedocGal]

I usually read posts on this topic with interest, as I was one of those children who had to adapt to another language and education system. I have never contributed, as I was in the child’s position and not the parents’, which is usually the subject here.  

However, I’ve decided to add my 2 pennies worth this time because I don’t like people feeling guilty unless they are murderers, paedophiles, rapists, Daily Mail readers (protective shield up[:)]) and such like.

An idea 

Do you have family you can leave your 16 year old with; enabling him to complete his education in the UK? He can join you every holiday and 2 academic years go by very quickly. If he continues to Uni, he would be away from home anyway so that hardly matters whether he is in France or the UK.

If you are one of those mothers who do not let their kids out of their sight without feeling like the world’s worst mother, then my idea will be of no use but just a thought. 

Based on my own experience, I would not recommend it after the age of 10/11. I know there are success stories for children who move abroad in their teens  but it’s just so much harder for them and based on people I know, I always wonder if most really ever achieve their full academic potential.

 

Edit: move abroad obviously refers to 'a different language to be learnt from scratch or basic level'

[suein56]

I, too, hesitated to reply as I have no personal experience; but a close friend of mine brought over her 2 boys when the eldest was 16 and he has had a very difficult time at school. He knew little French when he arrived with GCSE in French and consequently lagged behind in lessons so much so that he never caught up.

Although he now speaks good French he has no qualifications and lives in the deep countryside where there is little employment. He is considering going back to the UK asap and taking A levels there, although he is now 20, and thereafter trying to become a student. There are problems with this and one of them is funding as the French government will not help out, saying he has been through [part of] the education system here and they have done their best for him, and the UK government say it is really not their problem either.

With hindsight my friend feels strongly that she should have taken up an option when the lad was 16 that he remained in the UK, staying with a member of the family and following an A level course; but she felt, at the time, that the family should be together.

Sue

[Val_2]

These last two replies reiterate exactly what my posting was about. I have seen so many people come here looking for a dream life only to have it shattered very cruelly when it was too late to return to the former life and in consequence they have all suffered because it was nothing like they imagined it would be - some had never ever been here before and yet moved lock stock and barrell!. If the original poster feels "told off for asking such a question" she should not be ,its far better to know what is ahead in such an important subject that any and all info is useful. As a further example, last year an english girl of 17 arrived at my son's Lycée which has 2200+ pupils,with only two years of french education behind her and hardly any spoken french. The staff were at their wit's end and my son was asked tospeak to her and try and find out if she could go elsewhere to study as they were not prepared to spend time on her with 20 odd other pupils in the same class trying to get on and get their BACs etc. As a consequence, her parents suddenly upped and took the family back to the UK as they were also unemployed and money was running out fast. Leaving a 16 year old with relatives has worked for many families moving to France and as said, there are holidays, e.mail and webcam now so its not a complete desertion.

[LanguedocGal]

I agree with Val-2 and will stick my neck out even further on this issue as it’s really close to my heart on a number of levels.

I definitely don’t want to make anyone feel guilty. Parents have options but the children may not have any if they are  thrown into the French education system too late. I tend to wonder at parents who often go on about ‘quality of life’ as the reason for the upheaval at the various stages of their children’s lives. I accept that when the children are very young but only to pre-teen. After that, I think the parents are usually focusing on their own quality of life and transferring that need/desire onto their children; thus making it more ‘acceptable’.

My perceptions of the risk factors according to age when taking children into a new language and education system. I’ve based this on my family’s experience as well as those of a lot of friends and people I have come across, who had to go through this.

0- 5        No risk. Child should adapt perfectly and only problem will be maintaining the original ‘mother tongue’.

6-9            low to lowish risk. Most children will adapt relatively easily. The more timid may struggle for a while.

10-11     Low to medium risk depending on the child’s abilities and more importantly – adaptability. Timid children are more likely to be the medium risk level element.

12-14            Medium to high risk. Child’s ability to adapt ‘socially’ is extremely important for the progress of this group.

15-16     Too high a risk to be contemplated. Why would you? What is the point?  S/he is virtually an adult. How do you expect them to acquire a foreign language (written and spoken) within a couple of  years, to the standard of the locals, when it has taken 15/16 years to achieve the same in his/her own language? Nothing is impossible but put yourself in their shoes and imagine having had to do the same thing at their age. 

Any other posters who moved from one language to another at a young age? How did you adapt?

I know it’s a difficult choice for parents but I only see things from the child’s point of view on this issue.

[Patf]

Sassy, there's no need to feel guilty. You did the right thing by asking for advice and information and now you are perhaps modifying your plans. I don't have first hand experience, but know one family here who came with three daughters aged 15, 18 and 20. They all ended up back in the UK with their grandparents. The youngest did try at school for a while but ended up as a " school refuser" and as I said eventually returned to the UK. The parents are sad about it but on balance feel that their life in France should not suffer and the daughters come over as much as posible. Pat.

[Gemini_man]

I think LanguedocGals' analysis is excellent and very well thought out - it may not be what people want to hear but in my opinion it's absolutely spot on although of course there are always exceptions.

Far better to arrange for a child of 14+ to finish their education in their mother tongue and then consider the options rather than put them through a potential torment of trying to learn in a language that they do not understand.

[cooperlola]

Even without the language change, it's tough as a late teen to ever catch up if you change schools.  I moved from Malta back to the UK at 15 and the differences in the curricula(e? Latin went for a ball of chalk!) alone were a nightmare.  I dread to think what would have happened if I'd been the shy retiring type!

[timc17]

We have four children and their ages when we moved here were 9 , 11 , 12 and 14.

All four have settled in well at school and all are achieving good moyennes. The eldest will be taking the Brevet this school year and has decided on the Lycee she'll be going to in September. She had excellent french before we got here which has been a huge help to her in adjusting to the differences between the UK and French teaching methods.

Please think long and hard before you make the final decision on your eldest son's future education. IMHO he will need at least a year to get up to speed with the language let alone studying for the Bac.

Why not move now and suggest your son drops down a year which will give him a bit of time to adjust and learn the language?

 

[snowy]

sorry i have no experience myself of this but having lived as an expat in various countries i know people who were in similar situations so here are a few suggestions:

-do A levels by distance learning, takes some committment, maybe hire a local tutor to help and attend summer schools or tutorials back in the UK

-go to an international school as a weekly border, I believe there is one in Bordeaux which wouldn't be too far away

-there are state boarding schools in the UK which you only pay for the boarding aspect not the schooling.  therefore much cheaper than normal boarding schools, would probably be coming to visit every 6 weeks the way school holidays work out.

What are your sons prioreties ie, staying together, getting good education, socializing with mates

hope you come to the best decision

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

12-14            Medium to high risk. Child’s ability to adapt ‘socially’ is extremely important for the progress of this group.

15-16     Too high a risk to be contemplated. Why would you? What is the point?  S/he is virtually an adult. How do you expect them to acquire a foreign language (written and spoken) within a couple of  years, to the standard of the locals, when it has taken 15/16 years to achieve the same in his/her own language? Nothing is impossible but put yourself in their shoes and imagine having had to do the same thing at their age. [/quote]

I agree completely with Languedoc Girl and can add my experience of putting myself in their shoes.

I have acquired a foreign language both written and spoken within a couple of years and also at an age (mid 40's) where it is much much harder than for a teenager, however I have 2 major advantages that the 15-16 year old wont have.

1. The confidence and life skills of a further 30 years.

2. I live on my own and have had to integrate completely on an immersion basis, I dont come home to listen to my family speaking English, in fact this forum is my only link with the language apart from the rare phone call.

I will also add a third, no-one to fall back on i.e parents.

Looking back to when I was 16 years old I thought that I knew everything and that people of my (now) age were past it, I had an overabundance of cockiness and misplaced confidence, if I had come here then to do what I am doing now I would have run back with my tail between my legs, if I had come with my parents they would have suffered my backlash and problems like so many parents of teenage ex-pat children I see here.

I do know of one person who came here in his early 20's without support and made a go of it, like me he had no-one to fall back on, ironically he thinks that I am braver than him as it is much harder for me to learn the language.

[Wendy]

You also need to enquire at the Lycee's in your area just what level of French they require for entry. In our area they wont even consider a non-French student unless he/she is fully fluent in both spoken and written French. And GCSE French does not get you to the fluency THEY are looking for. This happened with my then 16 year old son.

In retrospect I wouldn't have brought him here until he'd finished school. My 13 year old though is doing very well but it has not been easy at all for him.